A deeper look into 1 Timothy 2:12

A deeper look into 1 Timothy 2:12

This is a response to an article called “A Deeper Look into: 1 Timothy 2:12” by an author posting by the email address of carmradio@ymail.com on September 23, 2008.  I will leave his name off this post.

There are so many fallacies in the article that I hardly know where to start.  However, let me start with the area that caused so many problems a year ago and I will give here what I should have said in the debate.  The section I will be addressing is called:

What the Term “Quiet/Silent” Means

**See comments at the end**  The author of this particular piece receives much of his information from an individual and ministry that he is very supportive of.  His mentor in a debate a year ago made it clear that silence in 1 Timothy 2:12 does not mean complete silence, but rather quietness.  He stated in that debate that if Paul was stopping a false deceived teacher from teaching her error to her husband (as I have shown from the context of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and as he was trying to refute), then Paul used the wrong word and it should have been the Greek word meaning complete silence, otherwise, as this person said in our debate, it would mean that Paul is saying that this deceived woman can teach her error to her husband “just a little bit“.  Hear the short audio clip here where this mentor denies that the word from 1 Timothy 2:12 means silence. Click here:  Denial that 1 Timothy 2:12 means silence

This clip was taken from our audio debate a year ago.   For the reasons why I am refuting a particular person’s theology but not using their name, please refer to this statement.

Well, let’s just take the reasoning and apply it to his own interpretation to see if doing something “just a little bit” will work for him.  This “author”** writes:

This term “silence” is again used in 1 Timothy 2:12, but we can see Paul is using it in the opposite manner as opposed to 1 Tim 2:2. 1 Timothy 2:12 says, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over men, but to be silent.” It says not to have authority over men, but to be silent. In other words, quietness/silence here means the opposite of having authority over man. So it reads, do not exercise authority over men, but instead be silent.

Here he is saying that quietness means the opposite of having authority.  But how can this be since his mentor very carefully made the observation that Paul isn’t saying complete silence but Paul said only quietness when he had his debate with me?  If I could, I would ask his mentor, so is Paul saying that women are allowed to have authority over men “just a little bit”? If his reasoning that “quietness” would mean that a woman can teach her heresy to her husband “just a little bit”, than by his own words and his own reasoning “quietness” must also mean that women can take authority over men “just a little bit” in the exact same way.  Now it is up to him to explain why Paul did not use the word for complete silence, but instead he used the Greek word meaning quietness.  So women can teach with authority over men “just a little bit”?

In the quote from the article, this author now wants quietness to be opposite to authority.  This is where he runs into all kinds of problems.  First of all the “normal” word for authority is not in this passage.  Whatever “authenteo” means in 1 Timothy 2:12, we know for certain that Paul never authorized men to “authenteo” anyone whether man, woman, or child and it is not a “normal” word in any sense of the imagination.  Secondly “quietness” is not opposite of authority even if the “normal” word for authority had been used.  Complete silence would be an opposite to teaching but quietness would not, nor is it clear how “quietness” could be opposite to authority.  Again I ask this author, is Paul giving women the liberty to have authority over men “just a little bit”?

The next thing that we note is that there are two things forbidden in the passage not one.  Is he claiming that “quietness” is also opposite to teaching?  If so, then the author’s mentor has contradicted himself, because he allows women to teach men the bible as long as they do not teach with authority.  So women can teach “just a little bit” as long as they do not teach with authority, according to this author,  but then using his own logic, women can have authority over men “just a little bit”.  His reasoning falls to the ground “just a little bit” 🙂

**Apparently this blog is written by a young man by the name of Jeremy who doesn’t know why his comments are coming up with the email address belonging to another apologist and with the other apologist’s name.  Google is sending the alerts out as the “unnamed” mentor as the author.  While the author certainly should be refuted, his mentor also needs to be corrected.  In fact these things should have been posed to this unnamed mentor a long time ago.  I will accept Jeremy’s explanation that his post was his own writing as a compliation of other authors original writings including the unnamed person that I refer to.  In future, I will quote Jeremy as the author on any new posts that I reference and hopefully he can find a way to have his own email address and his own name listed in his blog so Google can correctly identify Jeremy as the author 🙂  **

33 thoughts on “A deeper look into 1 Timothy 2:12

  1. Good catch. It’s always fun and educational to take the made-up meanings people use and see how they work in various places.

    But I’d also ask for a precise definition of “teaching with authority”. Where does scripture stipulate exactly when teaching is “authoritative” and when it is not? Some invent an imaginary “office” such as “the pastorate” or “the pulpit”, but of course neither of those terms are even hinted at in scripture.

    In fact, I think the ONLY people in this age who could ever claim authority in their teachings are Jesus and the NT writers. It is those teachings that the early church devoted itself to, and those teachings that are the Word of God. Nobody else has any authority beyond that. There are no “levels” of authority beyond that.

    There are mature believers who are to train the immature until they “grow up”, and there are SERVANTS who warn against falsehood. But no “authorities”. Does anyone know of an instance in the NT where either exousion or archon is used to show authority of one non-NT writing believer over another?

  2. hesuchia is the attitude of a student when learning, it is allowing to be taught by a teacher and not being disruptive.

    This is something ALL believers are to have, we are all to be students at times learning from another who is teaching.

    In this pericope it is a repeated word indicating a inclusio or tight coupling of 1 Tim 2:11 with v. 12, these verses are in effect the whole teaching of Paul to Timothy on what to do with “a/the woman” and need to be bundled when discussed.  (This shows the typical unbundling by non-egals is flawed.)

  3. Scripture does talk about teaching with authority in 1 Peter 4:10, 11.  Note the authority is from God himself to teach as speaking the oracles of God himself.  Is this authority to be final so that the listener may not question the one teaching “with authority”?  No, not at all.  Even Paul said that his own teachings were subject to be tested by the scriptures by those listening to him.  Paul commended the Bereans for testing even Paul’s own authoritative teachings.  They checked him out with the scriptures.  1 Peter 4:10, 11 is not given for men alone, but for everyone gifted by God.

    So what does this “unnamed” mentor of the blog author mean by “teaching with authority”?  He has stated on his radio show that a woman can use his material to teach men.  So, in essence, a woman can say this man says such and such about this bible passage.  But what he does not allow her to state that “God says…”  She cannot definitely state that God says… or God means this… and you must obey the word of God, because that would be, in his eyes, teaching with authority. Men are supposedly the only ones who can authoritatively say “God says..”

    This “unnamed person” also teaches about the authority of the pulpit.  What he fails to tell people is that there is no such thing in scripture as a “pulpit”.  There is no such authority given to a piece of furniture or to people who stand behind this piece of furniture.  The only authority that is given resides in the gifts of God.  And even that authority is subject to testing against scripture.  We are all required to test and we are all required to hold fast to what is true.

    Paula, you are right in that there are no levels of authority beyond scripture.  Although those gifted to speak are given the authority to speak as if they are speaking the very oracles of God, their authority is to speak and it is not an authority over another person.  This is why their words are to be tested by scripture.  Their authority to speak forth God’s word only exists while their words align with scripture.

    By the way, I added a short audio clip to the post above that has the “unnamed mentor” of the blog author denying that quiet means silence.  What he stated so confidently a year ago is now taken and measured against his own position. 

  4. It would be a hoot to see what he does with 2 Kings 22:14-16–

    Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Akbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophet Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the New Quarter. She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, ‘This is what the LORD says:

    I’m guessing he’d take the “escape clause”, “She was an exception to the rule.” But exceptions can only disprove rules.

  5. Since it was MY post you were referring to, do not give credit to someone by the email of carmradio@ymail.com… i only quoted this author on my page, so I don’t need him to get mad at me for thinking I said my post was from him.

    Also if you want to debate me on the topic – email me at quiet4no1@gmail.com. Unless you are not up for it, but from what I can see that you wrote above, you didn’t really refute it… you just kinda pointed out a mistake a made in clarifying a topic.

    If you want to see Matt Slicks page from carmradio@ymail.com – here is a link:

    Women in Ministry

    I believe he has more credentials and experience than I or you =)

  6. I did not know you had a debate with him, which I would love to listen to.. I only saw the first comment you posted.

    I only used Matt Slick for sources, as well as John Piper, and a Bible Dictionary.

    I would still like to talk about the topic with you more in depth tho

  7. Jeremy,

    The blog update came through as:

    Google Blogs Alert for: “matt slick”

    A Deeper Look Into: 1 Timothy 2:12
    By carmradio@ymail.com (Matt Slick)
    Different Stances on 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul’s words in 1 Timothy 2:12, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet,” seem to stir up a lot of emotion among the Christian faith.
    Innovation Apologetics Research – http://innovationapologetics.blogspot.com/

    This clearly comes through as written by someone other than yourself.  Perhaps you can explain why google alerts lists someone else as the author and gives someone else’s email address as the email address of the author.  I did notice that you have CARM as a sponsor.  Obviously there is something more than meets the eye, eh?

  8. How does someone even change that author, and how does Google make the author be contrary to what I have listed as ME as the author on my page?

    Check out my page and you will see my picture. I have used Matt Slick’s name, email, site, etc to let others know of contacting or calling him since he is a great apologist, but other than that my blog should have my authorship, other than quoting other apologists and sharing their work with others.

    Check out my site again, and research it before you make accusations that were directed by google. Thanks

  9. “unless you are not up for it… you didn’t really refute it… you just kinda pointed out a mistake a made in clarifying a topic…”

    Taunting, denial, calling an obvious flip-flop a “mistake”… those are the hallmarks of desperation, the fear of losing one’s tradition-granted privileges.
    And “I believe he has more credentials and experience than I or you” is thrown down as if it trumps the Berean card. It’s exactly what the evolutionists do: they make sure only they get “credentials”, then dismiss everyone who doesn’t meet them!
    Cheryl, this guy’s not looking for a debate, he’s just looking for a fight. He wants a piece of the “let’s trash Cheryl” pie. Had he displayed some respect and Christian love, he might have earned the right to be listened to. But then, we haven’t exactly seen a lot of that coming from those who think Y chromosomes are what God values most.

  10. Jeremy,

    Actually I am very aware of the “unnamed person”.  I would suggest you read the link I posted to a statement that I have made.  This person is clearly a mentor for you on your post and I have already refuted him on many posts here on this blog.  He has not answered the refutations nor will he allow me back on his radio show.  The section on women in ministry on the site that you link to is about half of it dedicated to “trying” to refute me.  He doesn’t do a very good job as there are many holes in his arguments that he has never answered and likely never will be able to answer.  As far as the article that is on your blog, I picked only one area to refute.

    I would also recommend you get a copy of my DVD so you can see the material that this “unnamed author” has not refuted.  In fact he now claims that he has never watched the DVD set, although it was in his possession for two years, and that is why he doesn’t refute it.  I have copies of emails sent to me from two years ago that discuss the contents so we will let his recent claims be judged against that.

    You can also see clips of the DVDs at http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22cheryl+schatz%22&search_type=&aq=f

    There are six clips there about 6 minutes each.

    I have no problem in discussing this issue in depth.  I would highly recommend you get a copy of the DVD because the exegesis and refutation is in the series and I just don’t have time to present in writing the same information that I carefully documented in the DVD.  Once you have viewed the material, I would be very happy to discuss it with you.  I am willing to answer questions and discuss over email or on this blog.  But it is best to have the person trying to debate me familiar with the evidence and the argument so there is an argument from knowledge.

    I hope that helps!

  11. It looks like the reason women seem to “dislike” 1 Tim 2:12 is because we want equality. Even I believe women are great teachers, some are great leaders and etc. The thing is, we can’t let something scriptural become only something that is now emotional.

    It is not that God belittles women, or that he doesn’t think they could be capable of leading, he just didn’t make man and woman as equal as we would like to believe. He made man with the intent to be a leader in a relationship with a woman and he made man to be a leader in the church. It has nothing to do with God not liking x and y chromosomes the same.

    I am not looking to trash anyone, I would like to debate Cheryl. I would like to see how she uses scripture to prove her side of this case, so I can see where she believes my side is wrong.

    I am not also trying to cause a scene. Also I have a question. As I have listened to Matt Slick, the only time he doesn’t allow others back on his show is when they are disrespectful to him. I hope you were not, as that is not a good image we are showing to others.

    I am not assuming, just curious. Also, I am editing my post for further clarification on the topics I chose that will be beneficial to understanding my point more clearly. So before you refute it, check back in a day or two to see my edited version.

    Grace,
    Jeremy

  12. Jeremy,

    You asked:

    How does someone even change that author, and how does Google make the author be contrary to what I have listed as ME as the author on my page?

    I don’t know, you tell me.  If you want I can email you the alert sent to me.

    Check out my page and you will see my picture. I have used Matt Slick’s name, email, site, etc to let others know of contacting or calling him since he is a great apologist, but other than that my blog should have my authorship, other than quoting other apologists and sharing their work with others.

    On posts there should always be a name of a person who wrote the post.  You can see on my posts that I am listed as the author.  There is no author listed on your posts except for the author that is listed in Google alerts.  It may be your blog, but the authorship of this article is not listed to you in the alerts.

  13. Since my authorship is not coming up, I am not aware of how to change that. I can put my name under each of my blogs, if that is the case. I have already provided a new post explaining it is my site.

    As for Matt Slick, you seem to have a grudge against him because of your time on air with him. One thing I would like you to know, he is not the only good apologist that has this viewpoint. This is why I will begin by using many apologist’s and theologians as sources for my commentary on Women in ministry.

  14. Jeremy,

    It is not true that this “unnamed” radio show host will only not let people back on the air unless they are rude.  I was not rude at all.  In fact I took great pains to compliment him and tell him how his site had helped me with a friend that was getting into universalism.  I have the audio files linked here on my blog so you can listen to hear if I was rude.

    It was my very first time on radio.  I am a teacher and not used to answering yes and no questions but there was no way that I was rude.  I was extremely gentle with this person and he was extremely rude to me.  In fact he later said that he would let me back on the radio if I promised to keep my answers down to 1.5 minutes a question.  I agreed to that stipulation and asked for the questions in advance so that I could time myself and keep my answers short.  He later rescinded his offer and refused to have me back on.

    I am not looking to trash anyone, I would like to debate Cheryl. I would like to see how she uses scripture to prove her side of this case, so I can see where she believes my side is wrong.

    Well that is good.  I assume that before a debate you would want to be familiar with my arguments and will be getting a copy of the DVD.  Excellent.

  15. Well I can not afford much at the moment, as I am in college and have tuition fees. I also am saving up for my marriage in December of 2008. So I am on a tight budget. Is there a way I could get a discount, that way I can view it? Or if you sent me a copy you have and I will return it when finished. Im really interested on hearing another “good refutation” as opposed to the weak ones.

    Let me know =)

  16. Jeremy,

    You said:

    It looks like the reason women seem to “dislike” 1 Tim 2:12 is because we want equality. Even I believe women are great teachers, some are great leaders and etc. The thing is, we can’t let something scriptural become only something that is now emotional.

    This is not true at all.  I for one do not “dislike” 1 Timothy 2:12.  It is inspired by God and fully true in its context.  Also look at my previous post to see that trying to discredit someone’s argument because one charges them with being emotional is a non-argument.  It begs the question.

    As for Matt Slick, you seem to have a grudge against him because of your time on air with him. One thing I would like you to know, he is not the only good apologist that has this viewpoint. This is why I will begin by using many apologist’s and theologians as sources for my commentary on Women in ministry.

    Also not true.  His on-air presence is not great but I was willing to continue our dialogs on air.  He was not.  The issue came after my on-air time with him.  My statement linked to this post tells it all. My blog is also open for anyone to test to see if the responses to complementarians is reasonable.

    We are told in scripture to refute false teaching.  That is where I stand.

  17. Jeremy,

    So I am on a tight budget. Is there a way I could get a discount, that way I can view it?

    If you are serious, email me and we can work something out 🙂  I am very favorably disposed to young men who love apologetics and want to hear both sides so that they can study to show themselves approved as a workman rightly dividing the word of God.

  18. I have not seen or heard anything bad about you, so I have no presuppositions about you other than you are a women of Christ that wants the truth of scripture to be revealed.

    I will not attack you on my blog, which I hope you can edit your post about my blog so people aren’t confused that it is by Matt Slick. I do not agree with your interpretation, as you do not agree with mine also. I am not going to call names, or do anything of the sort. The only thing I will do is make sure my research is accurate, and tells exactly what it should. I am going to look at the greek that is used in 1 Timothy regarding the term “hesuchia” so I can understand whether it is better translated as silent or quiet. From my research, it could be either of the two.

    I am going to listen to the dialogue between you and Matt today if possible. Is it the link you posted in your blog refutation of my site? Or is it elsewhere on your blog?

    Also, how did you edit the HTML to make it look so nice of a layout on your site. I would love to be able to do something like this for my site, yet I have no clue where to start. Please let me know if you could, just email me at quiet4no1@gmail.com

  19. Lastly, Jeremy asked:

    Since my authorship is not coming up, I am not aware of how to change that. I can put my name under each of my blogs, if that is the case. I have already provided a new post explaining it is my site.

    Well, for the record, the article is listed as an ownership by someone else.  Have you let him guest posted your site in the past?  If so, perhaps you are signing up under his guest post name.  You will have to make sure that in your author’s list that you do not list his email address because that will surely list him as the author.

    I am going to leave this post as it is since your arguments are his anyway, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt although Google thinks you aren’t telling the truth.  You will definitely have to change the inner workings of your site or fess up to Mr. “unnamed” that you have been inadvertently posting as him. 😉

  20. Jeremy,

    Welcome to Cheryl’s blog.  I am egal, formerly not, as that was all I had been taught.  Once I studied both sides, I became egal and continue to study both sides.  Cheryl has some great insights that I have not seen elsewhere.

  21. I would find it beneficial for you to take that off since they are not all Matt Slick’s arguments, they are also John Piper’s. The quietness vs. Silence is also directly from Piper’s research on the topic. My blog is aimed at taking research and applying it to a conclusion with sufficient evidence.

    I can try to prove to you as much as possible that this blog is my own, as it is backed up by many of my followers. I am a member of Campus Crusade for Christ at my university, and I know any other apologist would have better commentary then myself, as I am new at doing this kinda thing lol

    Just don’t give credit to others for compiling these arguments or give credit to Matt for an argument that is anothers. That is all

  22. Okay Jeremy, I will email you on site things.

    Don,
    Thanks for reminding me of a warm policy that we have here.

    Jeremy welcome!
    I do try to welcome every new visitor to my blog who posts here for the first time and because we got into it kind of early, I failed to do that.  I hope you feel welcome here as we have a genuine care for the body of Christ whether people believe as we do on the secondary issues of faith or not.  We are to be known for our love and sometimes we are very passionate in defending the truth from scripture so please don’t take our passion as anything other than pure love for the scriptures and care about other members in the body of Christ too.

    As far as the audio, I will give the links here for you.  You will probably want to read through this post too as it gives the rest of the story that I was forbidden to give in my time on the radio.  When you listen you will hear that I ask permission to finish the passage from the most important verse that defines the passage on 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and I was refused the ability to do that and then he refused to have me on again.  Here is the rest of the story:
    http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/09/30/the-rest-of-the-story-1-timothy-211-15-and-matt-slick/

    The audio to debate number 2 is linked in the above post and the audio to debate number 1 is linked in this post http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/09/19/debate-audio-between-matt-slick-and-cheryl-schatz/

  23. Jeremy, Just to introduce myself: I am also an egal who was a comp for 20 years and even worked marketing comp materials, conferences, etc until I started studying the Word with the Holy Spirit instead of only listening to human teachers for understanding.

    Now, I feel free to witness to and teach anyone regardless of gender. Freedom in Christ. No Jew No Greek. You see, I learned that the only authority in the Body is Jesus Christ, the Word and the Holy Spirit…God. We are just instruments He gifts and uses for HIS Glory. And we all have different gifts.

    Welcome and Blessings.

  24. Hello,

     Welcome to the site.

     After I became Born-Again at the age of 24……
    I started seeing things in the church that I questioned and started to see that Scripture said one thing and everyone else was doing another. As I grew more in the faith, I had to make a stand for Truth and the teachings of Christ. That’s why I’m a Egal. The more I got into my bible and Prayed for wisdom and understanding, the more I found out! I’m 30 now and going strong for our Lord!

  25. I remember one time at my church they have a men’s group and a women’s group. The men were studying a book by some arthur I didn’t care for. The women were studying the book of John! I said great so I signed up on the board. Then I found out I couldn’t going to the study because I was a man/male. I got mad because I was Hungerying for truth as a new believer and I left unfed!

     I said because I’m a man/male I’m being  withheld the Word of God?! Things were never the same at that church. I still go to that church off and on, I will go back to give this New DVD on the Trinity for there Library!

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