Women In Ministry

Sep 26th, 2008 by Cheryl Schatz

Wade Burleson has blogged on the Trinity and the unorthodox trend that has come into the church that teaches an eternally subordinated Son of God in the Trinity.

Wade writes:

The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is composed of many Southern Baptists who are introducing to evangelicalism a novel, if not peculiar, view of Christ which has more in common with Arianism than the historic, orthodox view of Christ’s person. The theologians and teachers who write for the CBMW are teaching what they call “the eternal subordination of the Son to the Father” as a basis for their hierarchal view that the female is to be subordinate to the male. Women’s subordination to man, according to the teachings of CBMW, is not a consequence of sin or a reflection of cultural values, but is built upon the heirachical order God established before the fall as a reflection of the Trinity.

This view of the Trinity has been used by some complementarians who have a lot of sway in Southern Baptist circles to support the functional subordination of women. I would recommend that you read what Wade has written and then have a read through the comments on his blog as well. It is a frightening thing to me to see the spread of this unorthodox doctrine and how many have accepted it as gospel truth.

It also comes at a very timely place for us as we are just getting ready to release our new 2 DVD set called “The Trinity: Eternity Past to Eternity Future, Explaining Truth & Exposing Error“

The DVD will be availabe by mid October at http://mmoutreach.org/ or from Amazon.com.

(October 2008 update: The DVD is now available and a preview is available on Youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLe-qF2nptA.)

Posted in Blogs by others, Complementarian errors, God and male, Headship/submission, Jesus, Southern Baptists, Trinity, Video, Women Pastors, Women serving in the church

24 Responses to “The unorthodox view of the Trinity related to women in ministry”

on 26 Sep 2008 at 3:17 pm1Cindy K

I’m so excited to finally see people (other than folks like us) open up this discussion in such a widely read forum that is read by so many who hold this view.

God will not be mocked, and I am encouraged to see people begin to question as well as reject these teachings. And the dialogue on Pastor Wade’s blog was quite respectful which is always a blessing. As you know all too well, Cheryl, such is not always the case.
on 26 Sep 2008 at 7:55 pm2Lin

Count me in on that, too. I was thrilled to see him address it for discussion.
on 27 Sep 2008 at 5:51 am3Don

The olive tree is ashakin’. I see 2 possibilities, repentence or division.
on 27 Sep 2008 at 5:56 am4Cheryl Schatz

This is a very precarious day. Many have hardened their heart so that they have eyes to see but they cannot see and ears to hear but they cannot hear.
on 27 Sep 2008 at 2:02 pm5tiro

side track ….. Cheryl,

You quoted somewhere what Thayers has to say about the definition of the Greek “n” (often translated as ‘or’ in English). My Thayer’s is old, 1886 and it doesn’t have the word in it. What year is the Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon that you found it in, and what page did you find it on.

Sorry to distract, but I’m going through all my research books to see what I can find on it, for resource material.
on 27 Sep 2008 at 2:39 pm6Cheryl Schatz

Hi tiro,

The New Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon Copyright 1979, 1981 page 275 Greek word #2228.

No distraction at all. I love people who are willing to research and test all things!
on 27 Sep 2008 at 5:21 pm7Don

What about BDAG?
on 27 Sep 2008 at 6:22 pm8tiro

Thanks Cheryl. It isn’t so much rechecking on this one as it is coming up with a list with specific references one can find for themselves. I like my old Thayer’s but it’s really difficult to find anything beside being in really small print. LOL

So, yeah, Don. What about BDAG. I’ve got The Source’s reference handy, will be looking online for Liddle & Scott and have the New International Dictionary of NT Theology which must have 20-30 references for me to read through. :( I have some others around here also.

I’m collecting them for Paula’s handbook.
on 27 Sep 2008 at 6:27 pm9Cheryl Schatz

tiro,

You are welcome!

Don,

I do not have a copy of BDAG. Pretty expensive. Do you know if it is available on-line?
on 28 Sep 2008 at 5:40 am10Don

I do not think it is.

My take is the only way to do better than BDAG is archeology, as a general statement. In other words, Strong’s and Thayer’s, etc. are useful, but are more limited.
on 28 Sep 2008 at 6:29 am11Lin

What does BDAG stand for since it is not in the title of this book.
on 28 Sep 2008 at 6:32 am12Lin

Never mind…it is the author’s initials, right?
on 28 Sep 2008 at 7:32 am13Paula

Strong’s is a concordance, which gives the usages of words in a particular book. So each translation or paraphrase of the Bible would need its own concordance.

Strong’s is tied to the KJV and thus only tells us how the KJV used each word, not necessarily how first century Greek used a particular word. For that we need to use a dictionary or lexicon, preferably one that gives the full semantic range and uses the most up-to-date discoveries.

In other words, Strong’s does not tell us the full semantic range of Greek words, but only how the KJV rendered them. It would be much better to use a concordance on the Greek texts.

A helpful article:
http://www.dabar.org/SemReview/bibtrans.htm

Here is Ann Nyland’s discussion on the issue. I wish she’d listed sources for this as I have been unable to find them online:

In the late 1880s and again in the mid 1970s, large amounts of papyri and inscriptions were discovered. These impacted our knowledge of word meaning in the New Testament dramatically. Why? Well, the papyri and inscriptions were written at the time of the New Testament. They were non-literary sources, that is, they touched upon all aspects of life - everyday private letters from ordinary people, contracts of marriage and divorce, tax papers, official decrees, birth and death notices, tombstones, and business documents. Why is this important? Prior to these discoveries, people who made up New Testament dictionaries didn’t have a clue what many of the words meant, as I said. But now, these rare words appeared commonly in different contexts, and everyday contexts too. We would use formal language in a letter to a politician, but we use everyday language in letters to friends. It is this everyday language that appears in the New Testament, and up popped hundreds of examples of these words. Large numbers of previously uncommon words found in the New Testament now appeared commonly in everyday documents as well as on inscriptions. Many mysteries of word meaning were thus solved. 15 volumes of new papyri were published in 1976. This meant that the meanings of a large number of words previously unattested were discovered. In the last 20 yrs, 4,000 inscriptions have been found at Ephesus alone. These discoveries have been largely overlooked by Bible translators. The problem is that laypersons and a significant number of Bible translators alike are unaware of all this as it is tucked away in technical journals. Available Bible dictionaries do not have this scholarship to any useful degree. BDAG has a little of it, but not much at all. In other words, Bible translators rely on dictionaries. The dictionaries are wrong, for many words. Nearly every recent New Testament dictionary is based on this outdated work while older ones are based on work prior even to that of Moulton and Milligan. the resources for translation have not been available to the Bible translator. Translators need decent dictionaries, and the current New Testament lexicon project (going on in my town, although work has stalled) won’t be in print for many, many years. As a lexicographer, I had to do my own dictionary work. every New Testament translation of today, apart from The Source, follows the traditional translations of the earlier versions, which were published centuries before the evidence from the papyri and inscriptions revealed to us the actual meanings of numerous New Testament words! The disregard of this evidence for word meaning has had a terrible impact on Bible translation. Many words suffer, but technical terms and idioms suffer particularly. For example, the term mistranslated “husband of one wife” is actually “faithful to their partner” and has been found on the tombstones of women. It is also clear that many modern translators have followed the KJV, whether directly or through the lexicons (dictionaries). The translations of most New Testament versions are based on a lack of understanding of Greek word meaning. Available translations do not sufficiently regard the abundant evidence from the papyri and inscriptions and thus in many cases present a far from accurate translation of the New Testament … because the tools are not available to the translator – the tools being published lexicons In many cases, the trouble is that religion based on mistranslation has laid down certain things in the Christian community on the whole and tradition is a very powerful thing. The Source is different because: The meanings of many words in other available Bibles are, quite bluntly, wrong. These meanings were discovered only recently but have been published only in technical academic journals related to the classics discipline in secular universities. The lexicon to replace Moulton and Milligan will not be published in fascicles [=multiple pieces over time], and is years away from publication. The Source is the only translation to date to take account of these word meanings. My field of research is lexicography.
on 28 Sep 2008 at 9:55 am14Don

BDAG is the official acronym for the 3rd edition of Bauer’s Lexicon, updated by Danker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDAG
on 02 Oct 2008 at 11:41 am15Pinklight

That a hierarchal Trinity is applied to marraige between a man and woman, adult spouses rather than fathers and sons, is amazing to me. Comps have taken one type of relationship and applied it to something entirely different,

If gender hierarchalists are going to apply a (false) Trinitarian hierarchy to male and female marriage then why DO THEY NOT apply it to fathers and sons?

Should not sons eternaly submit to their fathers? Should not father obey and give their sons command for the duration of their lives?

An eternal patriarchal arrangement between father and son is the immediate obvious application as long as we are making false ones.
on 02 Oct 2008 at 11:49 am16Cheryl Schatz

Pinklight,

Excellent questions! I suspect that hierarchists will not have any answers to your questions, but keep asking them.
on 02 Oct 2008 at 12:46 pm17Paula

Yes, great points, Pink! It’s just like the false dichotomy between patriarchy and egalitarianism; it’s really between patriarchy and matriarchy, with egal. in the center. With that false premise, no matter what concessions patriarchalists would either make or get from us, we’d still wind up with some form of patriarchy. The game is rigged!
on 02 Oct 2008 at 12:56 pm18Don

Be careful what you ask for, as you may get it. There are SOME who teach that a child is to obey their parents/father even when an adult!

This is not true and in effect keeps the child a child until the parent dies.
on 14 Oct 2008 at 10:42 am19Frank

      There was an important debate on the Trinity, 10/09/08, at TEDS. W. Grudem and B. Ware argued for the semi-Arian position of CBMW, while Tom McCall and Keith Yandell argued for the historic, “Orthodox” view of the Trinity. And you will find a good report and summary of the debate at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/octoberweb-only/141-23.0.hmtl. But the indications are that “the Battle for the Trinity” is far from over.
      And so if we want to better understand this doctrine and how to contend for it in these times, I recommend the following books:
1. The Forgotten Trinity: Recovering the Heart of Christian Belief, by James R. White.
2. God in Three Persons: A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity, by Millard J. Erickson.
3. One God in Trinity: An Analysis of the Primary Dogma of Christianity, eds. Peter Toon and James Springster.
4. The Trinity: Global Perspectives, by Velerie-Matti Karkarharen.
      Now, if you have read my blog on the Trinity, you will understand how serious I view the perversion of this centeral doctrine by certain persons to ground their false teaching regard the permanent subjugation of women to men. Therefore, I have written a revised version of my “The Trinity and Evangelical Neo-Arianism” to Jon Zens, encouraging him to use it as one of several articles in a special edition of Searching Together on the Trinity debate. For, as urged in Jude 3-4, I intend to contend for the Faith against all dangerous heresies, and will continue to encourgae others to do the same.
on 14 Oct 2008 at 11:31 am20Don

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/octoberweb-only/

Frank’s link did not work for me, I had to back up and use the above and then click on “Anathemas all around” article.
on 14 Oct 2008 at 11:42 am21Don

Frank, I clicked on your name, but I got yahoo360 which does not exist, so I have no idea how to contact you and am not sure who you are.
on 14 Oct 2008 at 3:08 pm22Cindy K

I also found that the Christianity today link did not work, but I did find this summary of the debate on the Henry Center blog.

http://www.henrycenter.org/blog/?p=36

(It’s the same link that I posted on another thread.)

Also, Wade Burleson’s blog still has a pretty healthy discussion taking place in response to a letter from Dr. Curtis Freeman (a Baptist) at Duke Divinity School. http://www.wadeburleson.com
on 14 Oct 2008 at 9:07 pm23Cheryl Schatz

I just got back into town and going through some of my email. I looked up one of Frank’s older comments and his web site should read as http://360.yahoo.com/fgeis I will correct his post if I can figure out how to correct his link.

Just a quick update before I fall into bed from exhaustion. The showing of the Trinity DVD went over extremely well. I was asked to show part 2 after the Sunday morning communion service and it was very well received with lots of great feedback. It is now available online at http://mmoutreach.org/order_macgregor_video.htm for US orders or http://mmoutreach.org/order_mmoinc_dvd.htm for Canadian and overseas orders. We spent about 5 hours today putting the product together and stocking shelves so it is all a go now. I will put out a formal post tomorrow and get our Amazon page ready too as soon as I can get a few spare minutes.

Thanks for all the great comments and the feedback. The apologists at the conference were surprised to hear the information in the Trinity DVD set and I think we sold more copies of this DVD this weekend than any other first release product. We are very happy, but very tired and grateful to be home.
on 14 Oct 2008 at 9:16 pm24Cheryl Schatz

Okay, I also found the link to the Christianity Today article at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/octoberweb-only/141-53.0.html This one should work.