Round 7 Interview with the Apostle Paul – Adam's accountability

Round 7 Interview with the Apostle Paul – Adam's accountability

Adam's accountability

This is the seventh in a series of simulated interviews with the Apostle Paul taken from the position of what he might say if we could transport Paul from the New Testament account through a time tunnel into our present day.

Doug, a strong complementarian is questioning Paul on why the man alone brought sin into the world.  Let’s listen in.  (Links to the previous interviews are at the bottom of this post.)

Paul: Grace and peace brother Doug.  Are you ready for a discussion on original sin?

Doug: I am very ready.  You have been speaking about women’s equality in spiritual matters, but I think you are going to have problems being consistent because of the fact that the male who was the only one who brought sin into the world.  Surely this proves that men are the only ones to lead in spiritual matters.

Paul: How do you connect spiritual privilege to males by the act of one man’s sin?

Doug: It is so clear.  Eve sinned first but God credited only the male with bringing sin into the world.  This proves the spiritual value of the male.

Paul: Hold on there Doug.  It doesn’t prove the spiritual value of the male.  It proves the spiritual value of the sin that Adam committed against God.

Doug: I don’t think so.  Who did God come to first after they ate the fruit?  This proves that the male had a higher place in God’s eyes as the federal head of the human race.  R.C. Sproul says:

This view teaches that Adam acted as a representative of the entire human race…Adam was the first human being created. He stands at the head of the human race. He was placed in the garden to act not only for himself but for all of his future descendents. Just as a federal government has a chief spokesman who is the head of the nation, so Adam was the federal head of mankind.

I would think that if only Adam stood as the “head” of the human race and only Adam brought sin into the world even though Eve sinned first, then we can understand that God places a much higher worth on men as far as spiritual leadership goes.

Paul: Brother Doug, this is male pride, my friend.  I used to be there myself before I came to Christ.

Doug: We are talking about a real scholar of the bible here.  You aren’t saying that R.C. Sproul is wrong, are you?

Paul: Let’s test him by God’s word.   The answer to the questions will determine the validity of the argument.  Did Adam act as a representative for Eve when he made the choice to eat the fruit?  When Adam fell did Eve fall too?  Did Adam ever act as her representative after the fall?  And lastly did Adam speak to God on Eve’s behalf?

Doug: Adam didn’t act as a representative for Eve when sin happened.  But Eve sinned first.  That was my point.  Eve sinned first, yet Adam got blamed first and he alone brought sin into the world.  That doesn’t make me guilty of  male pride.  That makes me faithful to the scriptures.

Paul: No it isn’t faithful to the scriptures at all.  It is reading into the scriptures by your “male pride” glasses.

Doug: How can you dare talk to me that way?

Paul: I speak to what I know.  I was the biggest sinner and part of that sin was the pride that I had as a male and as a Jew and as a Pharisee.  We Pharisees were the very best at judging everyone else as lower than ourselves.  I understand how you think, but you do not know the scriptures in this matter, neither do you know the justice and grace of God.

Doug: Did you come here to insult me today?

Paul: No.  I came to speak into your life in an area that I know is a source of pride for you.  You aren’t going to like what I have to say today, but I promise you if you listen to me with open ears, God can prick your heart with sorrow for an area of pride that has become a stumbling block for you.

Doug: I have listened to you so far, but today you are starting to tick me off.

Paul: Give me just today and if I haven’t made my point, then you don’t need to see my face again.

Doug: (mumbling to himself and shifting his weight from one foot to another in obvious discomfort)  Okay, you have one chance to redeem yourself.  What do you have to say?

Paul: The teaching that Adam acted in a representative fashion for all of humanity is not true.  Eve is part of that humanity.  Adam didn’t act as a representative for Eve.  Adam didn’t taint her with his sin.  Did God call Adam to account for Eve’s sin?

Doug: No, not at all.  God approached both Adam and Eve and each one was called to account for what they did.  But Adam must have been special because sin came into the world only through him.  You are the one who wrote that in scripture!

Paul: Brother Doug, Adam was not special.  Adam’s sin was special.

Doug: How could Adam’s sin have been any different than Eve’s sin?  They both ate the fruit and they both broke God’s commandment.

Paul: It is time that we have a good look at the scriptures.  Let’s look at what I wrote about Adam and Eve and also what God had to say about Adam’s sin.  First of all let’s note that sin did indeed come through one man just as I wrote in Romans:

Romans 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–

When I wrote the book of Romans, I compared the first Adam who brought sin into the world and the last Adam who was Jesus Christ and who as the Mesasiah brought freedom from sin.  I also made note that the sin of Adam was not like the sin of many others.

Romans 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Yet Adam’s sin was like the sin of some.  Those who dealt treacherously against God were likened to Adam.

Hosea 6:7  But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

God calls Adam’s sin a treacherous act.  The Hebrew word means treacherous, unfaithful, deceitful.  It isn’t the fact that Adam was male that caused God to call his act treacherous.  It is what Adam did.

Doug: I really don’t see any difference between Adam’s sin and Eve’s sin.  She wasn’t innocent in the fall.

Paul: Well, let us look at the scripture to see how God sees Eve’s sin as different from Adam’s sin.  There are only two scriptures in the New Testament that refer to Eve and I wrote them both.

2 Corinthians 11:3  But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

The only two references to Eve are those that discuss deception.  Do you see that Eve was the recipient of deception?  Do you see that Eve was led astray from a simple and pure devotion to God?

Doug: Okay, I can grant that Eve was deceived, but I don’t see how deception is an excuse for sin.

Paul: It isn’t an excuse for sin, but it does show a difference in the heart attitude.  God is the one who looks on the heart.  It also provided an opportunity for God to step in and rescue.  It is a God-ordained opportunity to give grace and mercy instead of condemnation.

Let me tell you my story.  You see, brother Doug, I was working hard for God before I came to Christ.  At least that is how I saw myself.  No one came close to the works that I did for God.  I was a Pharisee of Pharisees and I was doing everything right and “by the book”.  I had a passion for God that was unmatched.  In my passion I was on a mission to destroy all of God’s enemies especially those who were betraying God by following this man named Jesus.  I fancied myself just like David who had a hatred for God’s enemies.  David said:

Psalm 139:21  Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
Psalm 139:22  I hate them with the utmost hatred; They have become my enemies.

It wasn’t a pretty picture now that I look back on my actions.  Look at what the book of Acts says about me as the persecutor of the church:

Acts 8:3  But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.

Acts 9:1  Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest,
Acts 9:2  and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

I attacked the church believing that what I was doing was sanctioned by God and it was the right thing to do.  I believed I was being faithful to Almighty God, the one I served.  Nobody could stand in my way…but Jesus did.  He turned my world upside down.

On that road to Damascus I met Him and my pride in my own self-righteousness was exposed.  I came face to face with the realization that He was everything that I denied He was and because I came against His own people, the sheep of His pasture, He was the ultimate one that I was persecuting.

Acts 9:3  As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
Acts 9:4  and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
Acts 9:5  And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

I was a broken man that day.  I could not believe that I had been so blind.  I came to faith in Christ that day understanding that the death Jesus experienced as a man was for me and my sin.  When He forgave me, He changed my heart so that I no longer saw myself as a self-appointed watchman set up to defend God with my murderous actions.  Instead I saw that I had been actually acting as a roadblock to God.

There I was on the road to Damascus, my mind filled with religious vengeance for Christians who I saw as God’s enemies and I was being exposed as a roadblock to God’s work!  It broke my pride and it softened my heart.  No longer did I hate the church.  God in His wonderful grace and mercy set me up as the foremost apologist to the church and He explained to me why I found mercy.

1 Timothy 1:12  I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,
1 Timothy 1:13  even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

I used the word “because” as it is a marker of causality.  I received mercy because God was able to step into my insolent life as an aggressor against God, for the reason that I did my actions against God ignorantly and in unbelief.  I did what I did against the church because I was deceived and I believed that what I was doing was a righteous and holy thing.

When I came to understand how fully I had been deceived, I received a heart of love for those who are also in the place of deception just like I was.  Eve was like me in a lot of ways.  She thought she knew all about God but she became completely deceived about God’s character and what her rights were.  When she believed the lies that the serpent told her, she fell deeply into deception because of his craftiness.  It was a  treacherous act that the serpent did by deceiving Eve.  And Eve wasn’t just a little deceived.  She was fully deceived and in that state of deception she believed that she was doing what was right in offering her new-found truth to her husband.  She gave of the fruit to him believing that she was helping him.

God is the one who looks at the heart and He alone decides who He will give mercy to.  When Eve understood that she had been duped into eating the fruit, her eyes were opened.  And when she confessed her sin to God, God gave her mercy and He brought grace through her.

Doug: What do you mean?  How did God bring grace through Eve?

Paul: God gave the Messiah to mankind as an antidote for our sin. God also used the treacherous act against the first woman as an entrance to provide mercy for all of us.  God brought the Savior through the very first deceived person.  God brought grace through Eve alone.  It was only her seed that would bring the Messiah.  And it was only Adam who brought the curse into the world.  Do you believe that God was unfair to differentiate between sin committed while blinded with deception and sin committed with full knowledge of the truth and with no blinding by deception?

Doug: But didn’t both of them receive the sentence of death?

Paul: God said that if they ate the fruit they would die.  The result of eating the fruit brought death.  However the punishment beyond death was different.  Adam’s act of treachery brought a curse on the earth. The serpent’s deception caused the animals to be cursed and the man’s treachery caused the earth to be cursed.  God said ‘because you did this, this result will occur’.  But God did not bring an additional punishment from the woman’s sin.  God did not identify a treachery on her part.

Doug: So what?  So the woman sinned after she was deceived.  This appears to be why you said that only men are to have the spiritual lead.  Women are easily deceived.

Paul: There you go again with your male pride.  It is not true that women are more easily deceived in spiritual matters.  In fact most false teachers are men and most of these teachers have been deceived by others.   But let’s not get off topic.  Let’s finish the issue of accountability.  Is it fair for God to put a curse onto the earth because of Adam’s treachery?

Doug: That doesn’t appear fair to me at all.

Paul: Remember that God created the animals from the ground and he created the garden of Eden out of the ground too.  This special education should have made Adam a strong defender of God when the serpent came into the garden to deceive the woman and lie about God.   Because of man’s deliberate treacherous act by staying silent when God’s woman was being deceived, God cursed the ground that should have been the best reason for Adam to fulfill his role as protector of the garden.  Adam failed God and his failure caused God’s woman to remain in deception until she fell.

Is it fair for God to bring grace through the woman and then take back that grace and forbid all women after her from teaching?

Doug: God didn’t forbid all women from teaching women.  He only forbid them from teaching men.

Paul: If this was true then God made a mistake.  God should have allowed women to teach only men.  If men are the designated spiritual leaders, and if all women are easily deceived, then their teaching gifts would only be safe by teaching men who by their spiritual privileged position would be able to correct her errors.  It then would make sense that other women and children should not be taught be women since they too are easily deceived.  In this view women could rightfully teach only men.  But this is not what I taught and I have shown you what I taught in its complete context by showing you the inspired words and the inspired grammar.  Now what are you going to do about it?

When you stop women from using their gifts for the benefit of the body of Jesus, you are operating in the natural and not in God’s way.  When you stand in the way of women using their gifts for the benefit of men you are persecuting Jesus.

Doug: You are really ticking me off!  You are making me responsible for a woman using her gift of teaching for men!

Paul: God does not hold Eve’s short time of deception against her.  Why are you holding it against all women?

Doug: This is what I was taught and it seems right to me.

Paul: I believe that God sent me here to open your eyes.  Brother Doug, you are no longer with an excuse.  What is left is your pride that you have a privileged position because of your male parts.  If you continue to accept and teach male supremacy when there is no spiritual supremacy allowing men alone to use their gifts of teaching, then you are not gathering with Jesus, you are scattering.  Think about women who teach the bible to men.  Are you trying to destroy these women as God’s enemies?  What you are really doing is persecuting Jesus who gifted and called His women.

Doug: I do not want to hear what you have to say.  Your words offend me and make me feel guilty before God.

Paul: Brother Doug, your heart is being pricked just as I knew it would.  It may take some time before you are ready to lay down your privileged position and accept your responsibility for lifting your sisters in Christ up and not hindering them and not standing in their way as a roadblock for Jesus Himself.  Think on this.  Everything else I have to say will be less hurtful than today has been.  Are you willing to think about what I have said to you?  If not I won’t be back.

_________________________________

Stay tuned as we discover whether Doug is open to hear more.  Thoughts?  Encouraging words for Doug??

(The first interview with the Apostle Paul and Doug is located here.  The  second interview is here.  The third interview is here.  The fourth interview is here.  The fifth interview is here.  The sixth interview is here.)  Part eight is located here.

15 thoughts on “Round 7 Interview with the Apostle Paul – Adam's accountability

  1. It’s ironic really, but there are many proud men who boast of their “Damascus Road experience” as if it qualifies them to lead. But a genuine experience like that from God will not cater to pride and ego, but cause pain and conflict leading to a servant’s heart. Paul was brought low, not in a false humility that says “I’m your boss only because God has laid this heavy burden upon me” (which is supposed to garner sympathy), but in true abasement. In other words, Paul experienced what some have called “two by four counseling” (being hit with a 2×4).

    In your interview, Paul has brought Doug to the point of pain and conflict, an approach not lightly endured today. The churches have been quite unwilling to confront sin but instead have accommodated it, thinking scripture forbids us from “dividing” or “quarreling”, as if that’s what confrontation of sin is. Doug’s reaction to this lesson is critical; will he humble himself and lay down perceived societal privilege as Paul and Jesus did, or will he cling jealously to the seat of power and go on thinking himself superior to half the human race?

  2. I want to say that I’ve always believed that most of those who believe that men are to be the spiritual leaders and also teachers of other men based on their perspective of Adam and Eve and Paul’s writings aren’t deceived in their beliefs. If one wants to believe something and does so long enough then eventualy, yeah they become deceived, but I’ve always understood that most supremeists at least initialy have known better. I have believed this because I cannot see how anyone can call themselves a christian, have a relationship with God and at the same time be openly prejudiced towards 1/2 the body, which is an enormous amount. It doesn’t make sense to me how someone with a heart for God can believe superiority/inferiority checks and balances for men and women based on the flesh, sex organs of all things and not the spiritual! To me, someone who says they are a christian and have prejudice against women is like saying that a bird is actualy a fish. It makes no sense to me. ‘I love God but I am prejudice against women’. (Male supremeists claim it’s not a matter of being prejudice) It doesn’t make sense and I still very much try to this day to make it make sense. I try and I try.

    Someone may say, ‘Well the’ve been taught that way in church’ and I would respond, ‘Are people really that gullible having minds that are easily deceived over and against a spiritual heart for God?’ The thoughts and belief system within prejudicial thinking has not an ounce of any of the fruits, out workings of the Spirit. It doesn’t look like that of the Spirit in anyway. Yet I hear those who I hold in high regard say that they think the best of people first rather than the worst even though humankind is born in sin so that it makes more sense to think the worst rather than the best, and combine that with the fact that humankind is born into a fallen world caged in sin all around.

    Perhaps I’m too simple of a person to understand it any other way. I don’t know. It seems that I cannot be convinced any other way after all these years, though I’d like to be if my view is incorrect. I would like to believe that most of those who look down on women are deceived and were so from the beginning of their prejudice view. In fact it would make me feel much better and it would be easier when on the topic. It would be easier for me to believe that most people (especialy religious ones) are generaly good and not bad in their hearts. But I just don’t think that such is the case or reality, but it would be great if it were true! To think that MOST of those who believe men are placed above women spiritualy in role are deceived like Eve rather than treacherous in heart like Adam IMO is fantasy thinking.

    Now can someone here please convince me otherwise, ;P cause it would make it alot easier for me when I’m on such topics of men and women in the church because I then wouldn’t have a reason to feel disgust for the kinds that put down others below themselves while claiming to love God rather than loving others as themselves. It would be much easier and pleasent to look at people in general who are prejudice as just deceived rather than having bad hearts. How nice that would be.

  3. Maybe male supremists really are just silly and immature when it comes to spiritual gifts and working with others in the body. I think of little kids running around in big bodies saying, ‘I get this and that, and you only get to do that’. I have a picture of little kids being selfish fighting over toys and some of the kids saying they posses most of them. I can’t help it. That’s how ridiculous to me this whole male female gender roles thing really is. It’s completly silly and immature. It’s time for some more kindercare! Yeah!! Brother, can’t grown ups just share?! LOL! Oh, somebody help me…

  4. Pink, you just illustrated why people don’t understand my rage at this great injustice. I agree with you that while many are deceived, many more are not, but above all NOBODY in this country, in this internet age, has any excuse not to read and study scripture on their own. Nobody is excused from being a Berean! If the “church fathers” had no excuses because they “claimed to see” (are held to be teachers), then much less do any of today’s teachers have the right to use deception as a defense. And their followers, regardless, are individually responsible for making use of the resources available to them. Teachers will be judged more strictly, but that doesn’t mean students are not judged at all.

  5. Hi Paula,

    I don’t know why any real christian has any excuse other than nuture, culture and below average IQ or mental incapability except maybe for some who are stubborn in nature and don’t want to listen to God. I can’t assume that God doesn’t work with his people’s hearts. Then there’s the money motivator. How many jumped on the band wagon when it started moving in retaliation against CBE, in what the 70’s? And how many are there today for the same reason? But that’s entirely different motive than hating women or feeling superior to them because of male pride.

    Maybe that’s what the majority of it is. Male pride. And why? Well look what God said Adam would do to Eve. Does this then mean that most men are born moraly inferior since perhaps they are like Adam wanting power and control over the female? If that’s the case, well that would be a hard one to work out if I were a male. If I were born lacking morality in that area, I’d be mad at God. Maybe it’s something in the male’s make-up or genes that wants to dominate the female? But then at least 40% of males on the planet do not have desire to dominate female, christian, religious, or neither. I donno. I’m just speaking my thoughts…

    Paula, I understood and recognized your rage against this injustice right away when I came here to Cheryl’s place, cause I’ve had the same since I came to learn about it existence, which was sometime when I was a teenager. And I’ve felt like nobody (the majority and excluding you) wouldn’t, or doesn’t understand. And it’s been my BIGGEST hang up over the whole issue of male female roles, superiority/inferiority and surely that had to do with my very high moral standing/make-up. I’ve always loved justice and what’s right to the most deepest part of me and hate hatred especialy when it comes from those who associate themselves with Christianity. They were always most important principles to me. What’s life without love, justice, and doing what is right? In prejudice and hate there is none of those things. The Church is NOT God’s dwelling but people seem to believe otherwise because for them it’s about what the church says and teaches and they follow like cattle, er sheep. I donno, maybe because life can be hard most people just want the easier way and so they follow the leaders of the church and what they teach, of which most are not even called by Christ to be pastors and leaders. I doubt most that are in the ‘high places’ in church have been called by Christ to lead his sheep. It would be unrealistic to think or believe so.

    Okay Cheryl, maybe I’m just babbling but I feel better having spoken my mind.

  6. The first sermon that we heard our new pastor preach was amazing to me because it really hit the nail on the head. He said that there is no peace unless there is both justice and righteousness. He said that righteousness without justice cannot bring peace and neither can justice without righteousness. There has been a barrier between male and female that is dissolved in Christ. But that peace between the two must have both justice and righteousness. When those who hold to male privilege teach the righteousness of the gospel but hold women back and give them no justice, there is a deep hole in our hearts. When we are brought together with our brothers in Christ and are no longer stopped from ministering, then we will come a lot closer to being a bride ready for her bridegroom.

  7. Tanx Pink! 🙂

    And I’m sure there are many causes (excuses?) for all the nonsense going on in the name of Christ these days. There are plenty of men and women who have no interest in controlling others, but these popular teachers and authors are actively trying to goad men into wanting control, and women into serving men’s whims, all while denying they’re doing it.

    God’s balance of justice and mercy will be perfect, a fact that gives me great peace. But in the mean time, I will hate what God hates and stand up for His honor against all who would sully His Name, whether it be misogyny, Calvinism, salvation by works, or anything else. Jesus’ sacrifice was wide enough to cover all sin, deep enough to reach to the lowest and the oppressed, and high enough to bury the pride of man. No one can tell me that Jesus didn’t do enough, or didn’t include women.

  8. Doug said: I am very ready. You have been speaking about women’s equality in spiritual matters, but I think you are going to have problems being consistent because of the fact that the male who was the only one who brought sin into the world. Surely this proves that men are the only ones to lead in spiritual matters.

    I don’t think that Doug has learned to untilize his mental capacity to the fullest. First of all it doesn’t make any sense why male bringing sin into the world can be equated with males leading in spiritual matters. It would make more sense to be equated with males being kept away as far as possible from leading in spiritual things being that Adam paved the way for sin’s entrance. In other words Adam if he were represenative for all males, leads the way into sin, rather than spiritual things. To be a follow of Adam in his foot steps is to bring about sin. Secondly for Doug to think that Adam bringing sin into the world proves anything shows that he does not grasp at what a fact actualy is. If something is proven then it is a fact.

    So what’s so inticing about connecting Adam brinning sin into the world to male leadership in the church? What? It’s creepy.

  9. Well Cheryl hearing the gist of that sermon is soothing. 🙂 And I just gotta say that justice is righteouness.

    ‘God’s balance of justice and mercy will be perfect, a fact that gives me great peace.’ Hey, and there’s Light in a dark world! 🙂

  10. As time goes on, there will be many who will be cut to the heart by the teaching ministry on this blog.

    Some will repent and no longer hold dear and gifted sisters back from Bible teaching and exposition.

    Others will rip their clothes (metaphorically), cast dust into the air and shout — AWAY WITH THESE PEOPLE !

  11. “I want to say that I’ve always believed that most of those who believe that men are to be the spiritual leaders and also teachers of other men based on their perspective of Adam and Eve and Paul’s writings aren’t deceived in their beliefs. ”

    I thnk some are based on this being what they were taught from early childhood. BUT, you have given the exact same arguement I have used when folks promote Calvin as a great theologian. Where did this great theologian find baptizing babies, sacraments and the state church in the NT scripture? He was not deceived. He was part of a ‘system’ in a leadership capacity and liked his position. He made his ‘doctrine’ fit his ‘position’.

    I think the same way about comp/pat teachers/preachers. Their ‘position’ fits their doctrine. They won’t give that up anytime soon. As a matter of fact, as diligent scholarship refutes and questions their views, they are getting bolder and they resort to attacking the messenger as ‘liberal’ or feminist and even as ‘rebellious’ and in sin.

  12. “:He said that there is no peace unless there is both justice and righteousness. He said that righteousness without justice cannot bring peace and neither can justice without righteousness.”

    I see this so clearly now because of a dear friend who showed me the parallels between the behavior of Israel of the OT and our churches today. It is truly astonishing to read the OT and see how much Christendom is repeating the exact same mistakes as Israel.

  13. I think that for many in the comp Christian realm-according to comments I have heard, the notion of the man being head has its appeal in part because it has the essence, in some ways, of chivalrous times, of knights in white armor rescuing and caring for their fair maidens. It has a bit of a fairy tale feel to it. The truth is, one can have chivalrous and ladylike behaviors, respectively, without sacrificing spiritual equality and mutuality. A man can open the door for me without having to be my ‘boss’. A woman can receive such gestures without having to sell her soul. These things can just be good manners-per the culture-without having any authority implications.

    I also think many women especially are not too uncomfortable with being in comp marriages and churches because 1. their husbands may in truth function as egalitarians within the marriage, and 2. they may have no desire or calling for ministry positions that are typically filled by men in their churches so the status quo doesn’t really step on their toes. Just my too senseless worth.

  14. Nuttin senseless about it, TS. It’s male rule that’s senseless. And good point about many women keeping silent because they personally are not directly affected by keeping women from full participation of their gifts in the community of believers. Yet it does affect them– and men too– in that the Body is emaciated and has limbs that have atrophied from disuse. “When one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it.”

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