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Debating women in ministry – round 2

Debating women in ministry – round 2

On Wednesday September 26, 2007 I will be having round number 2 with Matt Slick on the issue of women in ministry. We will be dealing with 1 Timothy 2 and the issues of whether “a woman” is a specific woman in Ephesus or whether Paul is prohibiting all Christian women from teaching men (or some variation of this). We will be also dealing with Paul’s reference to creation in this passage and what creation has to do with the prohibition. It should be another hot debate and if you can catch it live, it will be on 790 KSPD in Boise, Idaho or catch the debate streamed live on myfamilyradio.com.

To listen to the program live on myfamilyradio.com go to http://www.myfamilyradio.com/player.html and pick the link at the very bottom for “790 KSPD play outside of browser” The time is 5 – 6 pm Pacific time, 6 – 7 pm Mountain time, 7 – 8 pm Central time, and 8 – 9 pm Eastern time.

The day after the debate the audio should be up at Matt’s podcast site here and I will also be linking to the audio file on this blog.

Dusman has a good advertisement up at http://graceinthetriad.blogspot.com/2007/09/can-women-be-pastors.html

You might want to let him know that you appreciate the coverage if you are interested in this debate.

And if anyone is interested in calling in to give Matt feedback on his radio show, his radio call-in number is 208-377-3790. The show is on Monday to Friday from 5 – 6 pm Pacific time, 6 – 7 pm Mountain time, 7 – 8 pm Central time, and 8 – 9 pm Eastern time.

Matt also takes emails during the show times that he often reads on air if there are no callers.  The day after the debate is a good time to let Matt know your thoughts on the debate.  His email address is carmradio@gmail.com

This is an important debate and if you know of someone who might be interested in listening to two Christian apologists who both love Jesus but have differing views on women teaching the bible in an authoritative way, please send them a link to this blog post so they can tune in and be challenged to test everything by God’s word.

Also Matt wants to pick up the pace a little on the debate so could you please pray that as I go through my points a little faster, that Matt will actually let me finish my sentences this time?

Boxing Oh, my, we may need to tie his boxing gloves together a bit to give me a fair shake. At any rate, I trust it will be a respectful continuation of the debate as we seek to challenge each other’s presuppositions. May the Lord Jesus be glorified as we go into round #2!

Debate audio between Matt Slick and Cheryl Schatz

Debate audio between Matt Slick and Cheryl Schatz

Hey all,

If you didn’t get a chance to hear the debate regarding women Pastors between Matt Slick of CARM and myself, you can hear it at this link.

The next debate is scheduled for Wednesday, September 26th.  The topic on that debate will be how do we know that the woman of 1 Timothy 2:12 is a specific woman in the Ephesus congregation and why is the reason for stopping her tied into the creation of Adam and Eve?  It should be another hot debate.

As far as Matt’s treatment of me tonight – I did not take any offense by his words.   I believe that he is deceived in this issue and so I am willing to cut him a lot of slack because of this.  I consider it a privilege to be able to say even one thing that will help women to be set free in Christ to celebrate their gifts and use them for God’s glory by benefiting both men and women in the body of Christ.

Any thoughts on this debate?  I am going to copy teknomom’s summary of this debate that she posted previous to my putting up this post.

(Additional note May 2009: Even though I tried my hardest to treat him with respect during the two radio appearances I had with him, he has publicly denounced me as the one who was attacking him.  Since that time he started many posts on his discussion board attacking my person and calling me a heretic and he allowed his vice-president Diane Sellner to call me names and to even question my sanity and all this because I accepted an invitation to talk about women in ministry.  I tried my best to get resolution to the misrepresentation and the name calling and my report on the Matthew 18 meeting I had with Matt Slick in August 2008 is found here.)

Debate with Matt Slick scheduled

Debate with Matt Slick scheduled

Hey all,

Regarding my previous post about debating with Matt Slick about women in ministry, I spoke to the producer of his radio program (Faith and Reason) tonight and she has set the date of Wednesday, September 19th for me to call in for the debate.

You can listen to the program live on myfamilyradio.com Go to http://www.myfamilyradio.com/player.html and pick the link at the very bottom for “790 KSPD play outside of browser” The time is 6 – 7 pm Mountain time so that would work out to 7 – 8 pm Central, 8 – 9 pm Eastern and 5 – 6 pm Pacific.

The next day the audio should be up at Matt’s podcast site here

Matt is pretty hard on women and it is time to present the other side in a logical, respectful and winsome way. I trust that the Lord Jesus will help me with all of that. Remember David and Goliath? Guess which one I am?? I will give you a hint…I hope to get out alive!

David and Goliath

Is Pastor one of the spiritual gifts?

Is Pastor one of the spiritual gifts?

While some people consider a “Pastor” to be an office, scripture lists “Pastor” as a spiritual gift in Ephesians 4:8-11.

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
Ephesians 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

The Greek word for Pastor is poimen and it means Shepherd.

In November 2006 at the Evangelical Theological Society meetings, Dr. Harold Hoehner presented a paper that asked the question, “Can a Woman Be a Pastor-Teacher?” Dr. Hoehner argued that Ephesians 4:11 indicates that “pastor-teacher” is a spiritual gift and not an office in the church. This position is consistent with his commentary on the book of Ephesians where he writes:

Some may question the validity of women pastors or pastor-teachers, but it must be remembered that these are gifts and not offices. Surely, women who pastor-shepherd among women should cause no problem at all (Titus 2:3–4). But in fact, Priscilla, along with Aquila, taught Apollos the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:25–26) which would indicate that a woman may not be limited to teaching only women” (Ephesians, 546).

Dr. Hoehner is one of the ESV translation review scholars and is not considered to be an egalitarian so his admission that God can gift women as Pastors for the benefit of the entire body of Christ caused quite a stir in the complementarian camp. Here is a summary of Dr. Hoehner’s position (http://assembling.blogspot.com/2006_11_01_archive.html)

1. Many misunderstandings about women in ministry are caused by a blurring of the distinctions between spiritual gifts and offices.
2. Scripture gives qualifications for offices. Qualifications are given for apostles, elder/ bishops, and deacons/deaconesses.
3. Scripture does not give qualifications for gifts. Gifts are given according to the will of God through the Holy Spirit.
4. Since there are no qualifications given for the list in Ephesians 4:11 (apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers), pastor-teachers are individuals endowed with spiritual gifts, not offices.
5. Therefore, even if women cannot hold a certain office, they can be pastor-teachers if they are so gifted.

It is to be noted that spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit, through believers, for the benefit of others, therefore a Pastor is given as a spiritual gift by the working of the Holy Spirit and it is a gift for the benefit of all:

1 Cor. 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

In Gifting vs Office (http://assembling.blogspot.com/2006/11/gifting-vs-office-4.html ) Alan Knox summarizes the view this way:

If this view is correct, then we should not emphasize that a person is “exercising” a certain spiritual gift. The person does not control whether or not, or how, the Spirit decides to work through them. Instead, as Peter says, the person should speak and/or act according to the will of God, and allow the Spirit to use those words/actions as He chooses.

I do recognize that there are people within Scripture that are called “teachers,” “prophets,” “servants,” etc. However, in my view, this is the recognition of others that these are the primary ways that the Spirit works through those individuals. Thus, for one known as a “teacher,” the Spirit normally uses that person’s words to teach others; therefore, other people recognize this and refer to him/her as a “teacher.”

If we do a word search on the Greek word for Pastor, we find the term used 17 times in the NASB, with 16 of these times translated as Shepherd and once translated as Pastor.

In closing, I quote again from Alan Knox who says:

I should speak as the Spirit leads me, even if no one “learns” from my words. I am not responsible for how others receive my words or actions; however, I am responsible for obeying God in everything that I do and say.

Amen! We are responsible for obeying God in everything that we do and say and if God gifts us as a Pastor, we are responsible for using that gift for the glory of God.

Debating on Women Pastors

Debating on Women Pastors

Did you ever feel pulled in a direction you really didn’t want to go in? Well, this has been my life for the last 3 1/2 years. If anyone wanted to talk about the issue of women in ministry, women Pastors or anything similar, I just wouldn’t go there. I just wanted to talk about Jesus and I wanted to stay away from controversial issues. Looking back on my attitude I think I was just being selfish because I didn’t want to touch a subject that didn’t affect me. After all I wasn’t a Pastor and if there were no women Pastors in the entire body of Christ, it really didn’t matter to me. I am an apologist called by God to witness to those caught in the cults and to teach correct biblical doctrine to those who had been deceived into believing that they had the right Jesus, the right gospel and the right spirit when all they had was a spiritual counterfeit. I had my eyes on the right goal, but I closed my eyes to the plight of multiple women in the body of Christ who were being stopped from ministering in their own God-given gifts. It wasn’t until I was treated badly for being a woman in ministry that I embarked on my own study of scripture to find out God’s will in the matter of women’s gifts in the body of Christ. I was open to being corrected and I came to scripture believing that if I was wrong to teach the gospel or correct people’s doctrine, then I would submit to whatever God’s will was for women.

That led me to the most amazing journey through scripture delving into the hard passages of scripture and after scripting my findings into a DVD series called “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” I can honestly say that I have a tremendous respect for the Apostle Paul and the full inspiration of scripture that frees women to serve God in whatever way that He calls them.

I praise God that my journey has brought freedom to many men and women in Christ. The first Pastor that contacted me after viewing the series said that the DVDs were instrumental in correcting his faulty tradition on the subject of women in ministry. All the praise goes to God for his faithfulness! Yet through the wonderful things that I was learning from each inspired word and each inspired piece of grammar in the hard passages of scripture, I lost two people whom I considered to be good friends. Just because I pointed out the scriptural basis for women to have freedom to minister for the common good, I was treated with anger, disrespect and ultimately shunned as a person sinning against God. God allowed this for his glory because what my friends intended as a rejection, and as a punishment for my beliefs, God saw fit to train me through suffering to understand what other women have experienced because they too chose to be obedient to God rather than to man-made tradition.

So here I am once again finding myself compelled to speak out even though my shy nature doesn’t want to experience the anger and rejection again. I have been listening to Matt Slick’s radio program called “Faith and Reason” and although there are many things that I do not agree with Matt on, I applaud his determination to reach out to the cults and to atheists with the good news of Jesus Christ. (Matt Slick’s radio program is at 790 AM,Boise, Idaho streamed at www.myfamilyradio.com 6 – 7 pm Mountain time Monday through Friday, phone number 208-377-3790.) In fact, I used Matt’s web site (www.carm.org) to get information on Universalism several years ago when I was dealing with a former Pastor who had become a Universalist and had infiltrated a Calvary Chapel Church where my former friends attended. The information that I got from Matt’s site was very helpful in dealing with the subject of Universalism and the end result was that my friends did not get pulled into this deception and the Universalist/former Christian Pastor was asked to leave the church so that he could no longer influence the people in the congregation. It was really amazing to me that I could put in a major amount of effort to help keep my friends safe from deception and then years later this same couple would turn on me and reject me merely because of the secondary issue of women in ministry. That is truly sad.

So, back to Matt. I have been listening to Matt’s podcasts and it has grieved me that he is counseling women to stop following after God’s calling on their lives regarding pastoral ministry. I felt that it was time that women and men who listen to his broadcasts realize that there is another side of this issue that they weren’t being told and I wrote to Matt asking for time to speak about the issue of women’s ability to teach the bible for the common good of men and women so that I could share the opposing viewpoint with his audience. Matt has had my DVD set for about a year and although I have asked him several times to point out what he considers to be my “errors” and to explain where my exegesis is wrong, he has chosen not to answer. While it would be more comfortable for me to just leave him alone and just to consider him a rather rude brother in Christ, I have a great concern about those whom he is influencing. So bottom line, I think this is the week when I will call into Matt’s program (probably Sept 10, 11 or 12, 2007) and say some words to defend our sisters in Christ whom God has called into ministry.

My concerns are that Matt is extremely passionate against women in ministry so that he comes across as rude and crude. He called me a feminist, a liberal and someone not interested in the truth of scripture. For those of you who have been reading my posts for some time now, you should have picked up by now that I am a big stickler for biblical inerrancy and for the full inspiration of scripture including inspired words and inspired grammar. Matt apparently cannot fathom anyone with this kind of respect for scripture who would believe differently than he does.

Listen to Matt’s comments here regarding women in ministry and my email to him. It is about 4 minutes long and is the section where he chides me for not believing in scripture. I am awed at how he could say the things he said after having read my emails and after having viewed my DVD set. It totally blows me away.

What Matt didn’t read from my emails was this:

Why do you treat cultists with respect and Christian sisters with such disrespect as if they were terrible sinners against God?

Before one can even discussion the issue of Pastors, one must be able to discuss the gifts of women in the church and whether God has given them freedom to teach and use their gifts for the benefit of the body of Christ.

I am gentle and respectful. Will you try to be respectful too since you are my brother in Christ? If so, then let’s talk. Set a time for after the 8th of September and I will let a bunch of Pastors through the US know about the show and let’s have a go at showing the cultists and atheists how godly Christians can talk about an issue that doesn’t affect one’s salvation.

The only answer I got from Matt was his comments on his radio program. He read this part of my email:

I am not a woman’s libber. I do not burn bras or rake men over the coals for all the atrocities that they have done to women through the years.

Apparently what I said that I do not do was cause for him to continue to say that I sounded like a woman’s libber. This is the kind of misrepresentation that creates an atmosphere of contention. Yet I still believe that what I can say in a loving and kind way will touch someone’s heart.

Please pray for me as I consider how and what I should say so that I can show God’s grace and God’s love to a brother in Christ who has not much respect for women whom God has called to minister without prejudice to the entire body of Christ.

If you have any words of wisdom, I am all ears.

Does "husband of one wife" disqualify women from being a Pastor?

Does "husband of one wife" disqualify women from being a Pastor?

I was listening to the January 26, 2007 radio program online by Matt Slick of carm.org. Matt answered a caller’s question regarding women leading in the church by appealing to Titus 1:6 and 1 Timothy 3:2 where it says that a Pastor/Elder/Overseer must be “the husband of one wife”. Matt said it was “case closed” because women cannot be “the husband of one wife”.

I appreciate Matt a lot for his excellent web site that exposes many cults and aberrant movements in Christianity and although I consider him a brother in Christ, I must disagree with him on his quick and pat answer to his callers regarding women in ministry. What Matt didn’t tell his callers and what he should have been challenged on is that “husband of one wife” used in the strict way that he uses it to disqualify women would also disqualify single men as well as married men without children, since the Elder/Pastor/Overseer is to be a “husband” and also required to keep his children under control (1 Timothy 3:4).

Instead of just shutting out women, single men and married men without children, we must work to understand what this passage means. Is 1 Timothy 3 a check list of qualifications (i.e. must be married, must be a father) or is it a set of principles that set a basis for godly standards? Every church that I am aware of uses 1 Timothy 3 to set principles because none of them forbid single men or married men without children from being a Pastor.

But if women are to be included along with single men and married men without children, then why did Paul say “husband of one wife” and he never said “wife of one husband”? The reason why Paul only mentioned “husband of one wife” is because it is a reference to polygamy. Polyandry (a woman married to several men at the same time) was not allowed in that culture and so Paul would not have needed to say that women in leadership must be the “wife of one husband”.

In the Jewish faith as practiced through the Talmudic law, Jewish men were allowed to have multiple wives but the High Priest was forbidden from being a polygamist. The High Priest could be married and divorced but he could not marry more than one wife at a time. The High Priest then, was to be “the husband of one wife”. Paul brings the same regulation to the leadership of the Church. Although polygamists could become part of the congregation, they were not allowed into leadership. In the early church, the believers were unsure of how to deal with polygamists. Some tried to force them to divorce all of their wives except for the original wife in order to be baptized as a Christian, but that left the women destitute and without support. Paul gives the final word by allowing polygamists into the church who come into faith after their multiple marriages had already occurred. The only prohibition was that polygamists were disallowed from serving the congregation as an elder or deacon. In 1 Corinthians 7:24 and 27 Paul talks about the marital state in which one has become a Christian.

1 Corinthians 7:24, 27 “Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released”

If a man is bound in marriage, he is not to dissolve that marriage just because he has become a Christian. So the early church then allowed polygamists into fellowship, but they also followed the lead of Christ in teaching that it was God’s will that only one husband and one wife were to be in the marriage union.

Mark 10:6, 8 “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE… AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.

So let’s review why the “husband of one wife” cannot be used to disqualify women from leadership. I think the answer will become evident from asking other relevant questions.

1. Do we stop a single male from being a pastor?

2. Do we force a pastor to resign if his wife dies and he is no longer married?

3. Do we stop a married man from being a pastor if he does not have children? After all the same passage says in 1 Timothy 3:4

He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity

We know of no church that disallows single men from being a Pastor. We also know of no church that disallows married men with no children from being a Pastor. Why is that? It is because we can understand from the passage that there is a principle being set forth. The principle is that if a person wants to be an Elder/Pastor/Overseer they must have their children under control (that is “if” they have children); they must not be a polygamist (that is “if” they are married and “if” they are a man).

The problems with interpreting 1 Timothy 3 as forbidding women from being an elder is:

1. There is nothing in the passage that says that a woman cannot be an elder in exactly the same way as there is nothing in the passage that says that a man cannot be an elder if he is single.

2. The Greek is written in such a way that allows both men and women to aspire to being a Pastor/Elder/Overseer.

1 Timothy 3:1 says: Trustworthy [is] the word: If anyone aspires to [the] position of overseer [Gr. episkope], he desires a good work. (Analytical-Literal Translation)

The Greek word used is NOT “aner” which would mean “If any male aspires…” Instead of the Greek word for males, the generic Greek word for”anyone” is used which is “tis”. “Tis” means men or women and has the exact same Greek grammatical structure as “anyone” in John 6:51 and every other passage concerning salvation.

John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever”

All of the salvation verses are just like 1 Timothy 3:1 and they are singular masculine in the Greek grammar but all of them use the generic Greek wording which includes men and women. If we dispute that the Greek can include men and women because the grammar is singular masculine, then we must also be consistent and disallow women to be saved since all of the salvation passages are written in the same way as 1 Timothy 3:1 with generic words having a singular masculine tense in the Greek.

3. 1 Timothy 3:12 also says that Deacons must be the husbands of one wife and this term clearly did not disqualify women because Phoebe was a Deacon of the church of Cenchrea.

Romans 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;

The word that the NASB translates as “servant” is “diakonos”which means Deacon. If Phoebe could be a Deacon of the church at Cenchrea and the term “husband of one wife” did not disqualify her, then why would we think that this same term would disqualify a woman from being an elder/pastor/overseer?

So the next time that someone tells you that 1 Timothy 3 forbids women from being a Pastor, you make sure to ask them if the same passage forbids single men and married men without children from being Pastors. If a person is going to be a literalist without considering the standard that is actually being set forth, then they must also follow through with the same standards for single men and married men without children. To fail to follow through with applying the principle across the board would be hypocritical.