Women In Ministry

History:

A meeting was held on August 22, 2008 in Idaho as my husband and I and our Pastor traveled to meet with Matt Slick to try to reconcile over the issues of Matt’s public misrepresentation of my teaching along with the continued attacks on my person.  Since the first time I appeared on Matt Slick’s “Faith and Reason” radio show, I have been accused of personally attacking Matt Slick and this has been the excuse used to justify an all-out attack against my integrity as an apologist and a Christian. I fail to see how anyone could see how my gentle approach to Matt could have been the justification for the launch of an attack against me. I have posted the audio of that radio show “debate” at this link for any one interested in hearing the foundation of the case against me. As a result of that first radio appearance, I have apparently become enemy number one, and I have been accused of being a dangerous person who will destroy the church and one who is a heretic. Everything I have written has been twisted into an “attack” against Matt Slick. All of Matt Slick’s subsequent attacks against me are listed by him as a “defense” against my attacks. I welcome any honest-hearted person to listen to the foundation of the case against me (audio link available on this page) and determine if the treatment I have received is fair or honest or even reasonable.

I am also posting a link to the audio file of the misrepresentation of my teaching.   Here is the link to the  misrepresentation.  This false view had been denied by me twice during our radio interview.  After quite a number of emails asking Matt Slick to retract his false testimony, only after my pastor wrote him and told him that he had slandered me, did he finally say something public.  Listen to him deny that he had slandered me (showing that he believed his false statement about my teaching was still valid) :  January 23 2008 first comment. When I emailed Matt that his comment overrode any “correction” since his denial that it was slander made it appear that my own denial was not true, listen to his amazing reaction to my request to merely make it clear that I do not teach the error that he said I teach January 23 2008 second comment in anger.

Over the next almost 9 months I continued to ask Matt Slick to retract his misrepresentation and his second statement where he claimed that he did not misrepresent me.   My issue is that I do not teach or believe that Paul was allowing a woman to teach heresy to her husband in any way, shape or form and any claim that this is what I teach or believe is a false witness and slander.  Following the Matthew 18 process after dealing privately with this issue and having endured all the name-calling for almost 9 months, I went the next step to take along two or three witnesses since there had been no resolution.  Matt finally agreed to a meeting scheduled for August 22, 2008.

Resolution at the meeting:

Almost a year after that first radio appearance, Matt Slick finally agreed to meet with me to discuss the issues between us. We did come to a position where all could agree including the two pastors who were in attendance as well as Ryan Turner, Matt’s new apologist at CARM. While Matt Slick refused to apologize for his name calling and his public misrepresentation of my teaching, by the end of the meeting he did agree that he would stop the public criticism and also he agreed read a statement that my pastor helped me write that Matt and I both agreed to in the meeting that would sufficiently correct the accusation about my teaching without Matt Slick saying he was sorry for misrepresenting me.  I would have liked him to apologize but I was willing to accept the correction without a public apology.

We have agreed that both Matt and Cheryl will stop any criticism of each other in public. The public discussion of the offenses is to stop as both of us considers what the other has communicated publicly as an attack. I (Cheryl) have agreed to do no further posting about Matt Slick on my blog (www.strivetoenter.com/wim). Matt has agreed to stop speaking about me on his radio program and to stop writing about me on CARM, except that he agreed to put a public retraction on his radio show saying that there was a public misrepresentation of my teaching by Matt. Matt agrees to correct what has been wrongly stated as my view by agreeing to say he was “wrong” in what he said about my teaching. I agreed that giving a public retraction that was written out and given to Matt to publish on his “Faith and Reason” show (the podcast is the “Faith and Reason” radio show available on the internet) as well as Matt’s stopping from his public attacks, even though he refused to apologize, was fair and reasonable and I would accept this.

Matt Slick does not follow through on his promises:

**Since our meeting on August 22nd, Matt Slick has changed his mind about publicly stating that he was “wrong” about my teaching. Without consulting with me or getting an agreement from me to change the public statement that we had both agreed to in our meeting, Matt decided that he could not publicly say he was “wrong”. I do not know what he did or didn’t say on that August 22, 2008 radio show because the statement he claims to have made is unavailable. Matt Slick made an agreement with me and this agreement was witnessed by all of us at the meeting, but Matt Slick felt free to break his agreement with me without consulting with me or asking for my willingness to change our agreement. On the August 22, 2008 podcast Faith and Reason show gives this brief note about the edited out piece:

(edit per Diane dj of two minutes beginning of program)

Copyright Matt Slick and CARM.org all rights reserved, do not copy or redistribute without permission of owner )

Matt Slick refuses to allow me to have a copy of the audio of the original radio program so I cannot verify what he actually said on his radio show. Matt Slick appears to believe that it is okay to arbitrarily break our agreement without my permission, and he also seems to believe that it is ethical to withhold a public statement from me so that I have no way to verify what he did or didn’t say. The readers of this blog will have to decide for themselves whether this is an ethical thing to do after an agreement had been made.

Matt Slick has also forbidden the radio station from giving me a copy of the audio from the radio show so his claims to have been in compliance with his promise made in front of his pastor and my pastor, his CARM associate Ryan Turner, myself and my husband are useless to me since they are unverifiable. It is Matt Slick’s own decision to remain unwilling to cooperate in any way at all. Also since the “retraction” of the false statement he made about me is not available on his podcast (which is the “Faith and Reason” radio show available on the internet) and since the “correction” was removed before it made it to the podcast to correct the false statement that was also available on his “Faith and Reason” podcast in essence continuing the bearing of a false witness regarding what I teach, it appears that the promise that Matt Slick made to me on August 22, 2008 was meant to make me think that he was willing to bring an end to our disagreement without actually doing one single thing to keep his word.

While our mutual agreement has been broken on Matt’s end by his going back on his word to me to give out the particular public statement that we both agreed upon at our meeting, and since what he claimed was his rewritten retraction of his false witness about my teaching has been removed from the public record on the August 22, 2008 program, the very day that we met him in Idaho, I still intend to keep my part of the agreement by bringing this all to an end by no longer commenting publicly about Matt Slick’s ways of attacking Christians who do not agree with him on secondary issues of faith. My integrity is not connected to whether Matt Slick is honorable enough to keep his word. Whether Matt stops attacking me in public or not, will have to be judged by those who read his discussion board and who read his carm.org website as well as the blog that has been set up to post criticism of me. I no longer go on these sites as I will have nothing to do with Mr. Slick so I will let the reader judge whether Matt has been faithful or not to his promises.

Mr. Slick has done much of his attacks in the past through his vice president Diane Sellner who has been given free reign to call me all kinds of names and to slander my character. Since CARM is completely under Matt Slick’s control, as he is the President of CARM, any attacks continued through Diane Sellner lay at the feet of Matt Slick, her boss. Matt Slick also informed us in the meeting that Diane Sellner has again launched an attack on me personally having purchased three web site names as cherylschatz dot whatever (with different endings). The purchase of my name was to mock and defame my name. If Matt Slick allows the attacks to continue through my own name on web sites that he has complete knowledge of through people who are employed with CARM and who are under his authority and his direction, then God will now have to be the judge between us and the public will also be in the position to judge. I am appalled that all of this started by my appearance on Matt Slick’s “Faith and Reason” radio show even with my strong attempts to show Matt Slick Christian honor and respect.

** (Added October 2008)The public has advised me that Matt Slick has not stopped attacking me but has placed pages on his web site dated the day after our meeting, continuing his false accusations and half truths. Apparently he never intended to keep his word to stop his public attacks against me either but instead he has expanded the attacks from his discussion board to his web site and onto Diane Sellner’s blogs. Although our long trip at our own expense to meet with Matt Slick to seek reconciliation has not brought resolution as we thought but only brought further attacks against my person, I have to let God work on Matt Slick’s heart because he refuses all forms of reconciliation demanding instead that I apologize to him for following the scriptural approach regarding dealing with issues of offense. I followed every step that scripture gives for dealing with an offensive brother. Matt Slick on the other hand never once tried to contact me privately to reconcile with me but has kept up his attacks against me as if I am not worthy of being called a Christian sister and a fellow apologist. For Matt Slick to ask me to apologize for following through with what the bible sets forth for disputes between Christians is unthinkable.**

This puts a period on any contact with Matt Slick. I will no longer discuss him although I will discuss his theology on women in ministry especially if I become aware that he has tried to answer my refutation of his articles. Sometimes there cannot be a resolution other than complete separation and this is where it stands.

I have also posted a public statement regarding my Matthew 18 meeting at http://www.mmoutreach.org/slick.htm and I have put a link to this statement in the sidebar.   Keith and Lorri MacGregor have posted their own comments regarding this issue along with my statement at http://mmoutreachinc.com/cheryl_slick.htm This brings to a complete end any words that I have regarding this matter as I have been pushed to produce a public statement about why I have been silent on this end about this very public disagreement.  I think this piece will put a huge period . on this matter as I have long ago moved on.  If anyone has any questions regarding the following statement, please email me privately for clarification.  My pastor is also willing to correspond with anyone who has questions concerning this issue or concerning my integrity as a Christian and an apologist.  Email me for his contact information.

Keith and Lorri MacGregor are my ministry partners and have been privy to the attacks against me from the very beginning.  Having heard Matt Slick for themselves speak in angry tones toward his sister in Christ calling me a heretic and twisting my words, their wisdom to me is to follow scripture to ignore a divisive person.  My pastor has also given me this same admonition and he too has been privy to the attacks against me both on the radio, in emails sent to him by Matt Slick and in the meeting in Idaho.

While I am sad that I was not able to be a peace maker in this dispute, I did appreciate that by taking the time and effort to make the twelve hour journey to Idaho, I had the opportunity to meet Ryan, the new apologist on CARM. I really appreciated his attitude and his demeanor. I pray that God will help him to make a positive impact in a godly way in the calling that he has.

Cheryl Schatz

May Jesus get the ultimate glory for He is our peacemaker who brings peace between God and us.