{"id":1443,"date":"2009-08-21T04:00:59","date_gmt":"2009-08-21T11:00:59","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=1443"},"modified":"2015-10-19T20:26:24","modified_gmt":"2015-10-20T03:26:24","slug":"john-piper-on-submission-in-abuse","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/2009\/08\/21\/john-piper-on-submission-in-abuse\/","title":{"rendered":"John Piper: "What should a wife's submission to her husband look like if he's an abuser?""},"content":{"rendered":"\n

<\/p>\u00a0\n

\n

\"john-piper-womens-abuse\"<\/p>\n

On August 19, 2009 John Piper\u00a0tackles a question<\/strong><\/a> on an abusive husband and Piper\u2019s answer directs women on how they should take abuse from their husbands. \u00a0The answer is typical of a complementarian who sees the husband as king and priest and the wife as the follower of her priest-king.<\/p>\n

My comments will be below the transcript. \u00a0I recommend you listen carefully to what Piper says. \u00a0I think there is a lot to discuss especially his freudian slip calling the husband \u201clord\u201d. \u00a0An edited transcript of the audio is below. To hear John Piper\u2019s actual audio or his video answer\u00a0click here<\/strong><\/a>. \u00a0It appears that the audio file from John Piper may be permanently removed. \u00a0Here is a link to a copy of the audio file: \u00a0Click here<\/a>.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Here is the transcript:<\/p>\n

\n

Part of that answer is clearly going to depend on what kind of abuse we\u2019re dealing with here, how serious this is. Is her life in danger? Or is this verbal unkindness? I\u2019m not sure what the person who asked the question had in mind. So let me just talk about different kinds.<\/p>\n

A woman\u2019s submission to her husband is rooted in the word of God, calling her to be\u2014for the Lord\u2019s sake, for the Lord\u2019s sake\u2014submissive to him. Which means she always has a higher allegiance, namely to Christ.<\/p>\n

Therefore Christ\u2019s word governs her life. And Christ has many words besides \u201cBe submissive.\u201d \u201cBe submissive\u201d is not an absolute, because her Lord has other things to tell her, so that if the husband tells her something that contradicts what the Lord tells her, then she\u2019s got a crisis of, \u201cTo whom do I submit now?\u201d And clearly she submits to Jesus above her husband. The reason she is submitting to her husband is because of her prior superior submission to the Lord.<\/p>\n

So if this man, for example, is calling her to engage in abusive acts willingly (group sex or something really weird, bizarre, harmful, that clearly would be sin), then the way she submits\u2014I really think this is possible, though it\u2019s kind of paradoxical\u2014is that she\u2019s not going to go there. I\u2019m saying, \u201cNo, she\u2019s not going to do what Jesus would disapprove even though the husband is asking her to do it.\u201d<\/p>\n

She\u2019s going to say, however, something like, \u201cHoney, I want so much to follow you as my leader. God calls me to do that, and I would love to do that. It would be sweet to me if I could enjoy your leadership. But if you ask me to do this, require this of me, then I can\u2019t go there.\u201d<\/p>\n

Now that\u2019s one kind of situation. Just a word on the other kind. If it\u2019s not requiring her to sin but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, and she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.<\/p>\n

Every time I deal with somebody in this, I find the ultimate solution under God in the church. In other words, this man should be disciplined, and she should have a safe place in a body of Christ where she goes and then the people in the church deal with him. She can\u2019t deal with him by herself.<\/p>\n

So the short answer, I think, is that the church is really crucial here to step in, be her strength, say to this man, \u201cYou can\u2019t do this. You cannot do this! That\u2019s not what we allow. That\u2019s not what Christ calls you to be.\u201d<\/p>\n

I can\u2019t go in to all the details, but I would say to the woman, \u201cCome to a church that you feel safe in. Tell them the case. Let the leaders step in and help you navigate the difficulties.\u201d<\/p>\n

(Audio and video of this answer is found at John Piper\u2019s site\u00a0here<\/a><\/strong>.)<\/p>\n

\u00a9 Desiring God<\/p>\n

Permissions:<\/strong> You are permitted and encouraged to reproduce and distribute this material in any format provided that you do not alter the wording in any way and do not charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction. For web posting, a link to this document on our website is preferred. Any exceptions to the above must be approved by Desiring God.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

My response:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

My first thought was why does John Piper keep laughing at questions about women and submission? \u00a0Might it be a nervous laughter because he is not really sure what to answer? \u00a0I am not sure but I have listened to other John Piper answers on other subjects and he wasn\u2019t laughing about those questions.<\/p>\n

John Piper qualifies his answer by saying that it would depend on what kind of \u201cabuse\u201d we are dealing with. \u00a0At one point he calls verbal abuse as verbal \u201cunkindness\u201d. \u00a0It is also interesting that he equates submission with \u201callegiance\u201d. \u00a0Is this the kind of allegiance of a subject to her king? \u00a0Well, John Piper does say that her Lord has other words for her other than just submission. \u00a0What if her subjection to the two that are above her conflict? \u00a0He says that this would produce a crisis of \u201cto whom do I submit now?\u201d \u00a0It sure sounds like competing lords to me. \u00a0Then he says \u201cclearly she submits to Jesus above the lord\u2026I mean above Jes\u2026.above her husband\u201d.<\/p>\n

Then notice that John Piper gets really happy about a way that he has worked it out for a woman to still submit when her husbands asks her to be involved in \u201cgroup sex\u201d. \u00a0She submits by answering \u201cHoney, I want so much to follow you as my leader\u2026it would be sweet to me if I could enjoy your leadership\u2026but I can\u2019t go there.\u201d \u00a0Honestly I found this answer to be really icky. \u00a0I do believe in speaking respectfully and speaking the truth in love, but the look on John Piper\u2019s face while he said this and these words which are to be given in response to an invitation to group sex just seemed really bizarre to me. \u00a0I do not mean to be disrespectful, but for me watching this was kind of like watching a stepford wife rehearsal.<\/p>\n

I also noticed the dismissal of her pain by Piper\u2019s saying that if what the husband wants is not requiring her to sin but is \u201csimply\u201d hurting her, she should endure verbal abuse and endure being \u201csmacked\u201d for one night. \u00a0 The \u201cultimate\u201d solution for the abused wife is in the church. \u00a0What happened to Jesus and the law who can physically help her? \u00a0 Apparently she is supposed to put her trust in a complementarian church to protect her. \u00a0He says that they will tell the husband to stop abusing her. \u00a0But more often than not in a complementarian church, it is the wife who is counseled on how to stop the abuse, not the husband. \u00a0It is the wife who is told to submit more and he will stop the abuse. \u00a0How is that kind of complementarian church a safe church to run to for the abused wife? \u00a0And what if the husband is not a believer? \u00a0Piper gives no other solution other than the \u201cultimate\u201d solution of going to the leaders of the church. \u00a0They are the ones who should \u201cdiscipline\u201d the husband by telling him that he should not be doing the abuse.<\/p>\n

Hmmm\u2026. \u00a0Thoughts?<\/p>\n<\/div>\n

<\/p>\n<\/body>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\u00a0 On August 19, 2009 John Piper\u00a0tackles a question on an abusive husband and Piper\u2019s answer directs women on how they should take abuse from their husbands. \u00a0The answer is typical of a complementarian who sees the husband as king and priest and the wife as the follower of her priest-king. My comments will be below the transcript. \u00a0I recommend you listen carefully to what Piper says. \u00a0I think there is a lot to discuss especially his freudian slip calling…<\/p>\n

Read More Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[13,24,43,46,52,61,63],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1443","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-authority-and-leadership","category-complementarian-errors","category-injustice-towards-women","category-man-as-priest-of-the-home","category-opposing-viewpoints","category-spiritual-abuse","category-submission"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\nJohn Piper: "What should a wife's submission to her husband look like if he's an abuser?" - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/2009\/08\/21\/john-piper-on-submission-in-abuse\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"John Piper: "What should a wife's submission to her husband look like if he's an abuser?" - Women in Ministry\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"\u00a0 On August 19, 2009 John Piper\u00a0tackles a question on an abusive husband and Piper\u2019s answer directs women on how they should take abuse from their husbands. \u00a0The answer is typical of a complementarian who sees the husband as king and priest and the wife as the follower of her priest-king. 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