![\"Whose](\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/mmoutreach.org\/wim\/wp-content\/uploads\/2009\/07\/women_obey.jpg?resize=404%2C332&ssl=1\" "\\"Whose")
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Responses to question #5<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n In the\u00a0last blog post<\/a><\/strong> Cheryl Schatz posed her fifth set of questions to\u00a0Mike Seaver<\/a><\/strong> regarding their discussion\/debate on women in ministry. Links to all the previous questions and responses is at the end of this post. \u00a0This discussion will be Cheryl\u2019s response to Mike\u2019s answers on question #5 and Mike\u2019s rejoinder. \u00a0Mike\u2019s matching blog post is here<\/a><\/strong>.\u00a0<\/p>\n ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<\/p>\n Cheryl Schatz responds:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n Mike, this has been a wonderful discussion and I thank you for your participation and the kind way that you have responded.<\/p>\n I would like to respond to several things that you said that I would like to question and challenge you at the same time also in a cordial manner.<\/p>\n Mike, you said that Paul urges men and women to prophesy but then you said that this is different than preaching and teaching. \u00a0However \u201cpreach\u201d and \u201cexpound\u201d are in the very definition of \u201cprophesy\u201d according to the Analytical lexicon of the Greek New Testament:<\/p>\n (1) generally, of speaking with the help of divine inspiration proclaim what God wants to make known, preach<\/strong>, expound<\/strong>\n<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament says the word prophesy means:<\/p>\n \nproclaim God\u2019s message<\/strong>, preach<\/strong>; prophesy, predict\u2026<\/p><\/blockquote>\n An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon abridged from Liddell and Scott\u2019s Lexicon says prophesy means:<\/p>\n II. in N.T. to expound scripture, to speak and preach<\/strong> under the influence of the Holy Spirit.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The Enhanced Strong\u2019s Lexicon writes this about the word prophesy:<\/p>\n 1C to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation. 1D to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels. 1D1 under like prompting, to teach<\/strong>, refute<\/strong>, reprove, admonish, comfort others.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n There is enough evidence from the lexicons \u00a0that \u201cpreaching\u201d is indeed well within the meaning of \u201cprophesy\u201d just as \u201crefuting\u201d is a work of those who prophesy (a clear indication that judging prophecy is a work of everyone capable of prophesying) see the Enhanced Strong\u2019s Lexicon above. \u00a0There is no direct prohibition<\/em><\/strong> against a woman or anyone else that would forbid them from judging prophecy. \u00a0Even Paul submitted himself to being judged by those who were wise and sensible:<\/p>\n 1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak to sensible people, judge for yourselves what I say. (ESV)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n To deny women from judging is to deny the universal call to judge, discern and test all things. \u00a0In 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 21 we are all told not to despise prophetic utterances, but we are all to examine everything carefully!<\/p>\n 1 Thessalonians 5:20 \u00a0do not despise prophetic utterances.<\/p>\n 1\u00a0Thessalonians\u00a05:21 \u00a0But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; \u00a0NASB<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n The Greek word in 1 Thess. 5:21 that is rendered \u201cexamine\u201d is \u201cdokimazo\u201d. \u00a0The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says about\u00a0\u201cdokimazo\u201d:<\/p>\n This word is very rare, there being no instances prior to Paul. \u00a0It means \u201ctesting\u201d or \u201ccertifying\u201d.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The Analytical Lexicon of the New Testament says of this word:<\/p>\n As making an examination put to the test, examine, prove (by testing)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n The Complete Word Study Dictionary says of this Greek word:<\/p>\n To try, prove, discern, distinguish, approve. It has the notion of proving a thing whether it is worthy or not.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n As I recorded in our second post<\/a><\/strong>, the weighing of the prophetic utterances was done in a question and answer discussion\/debate format which all were given the opportunity to be a part of the testing and proving. \u00a0This is the judging that Paul was speaking about in 1 Cor. 14:29. \u00a0I notice that you did not respond to any of the scriptures I gave that proved that discernment and evaluation is to be a part of each one of our lives as we grow toward maturity. \u00a0These are Christian activities<\/strong><\/em> that are commanded for all to participate in. \u00a0All of us are to test and judge. \u00a0Why? \u00a0Because in the next age we will all judge the world and the angels.<\/p>\n 1 Corinthians 6:2 \u00a0Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?<\/p>\n 1 Corinthians 6:3 \u00a0Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Surely if women are going to judge the world and the angels in the future, they are also to be mature Christians who are obedient to the command to judge prophetic utterances here in this life as Paul commanded in 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 21.<\/p>\n Can you list even one clear verse<\/em><\/strong> that says that women are not<\/em><\/strong> to judge prophetic utterances? \u00a0Can you list even one clear verse that exempts women<\/em><\/strong> from the duty to test all things and to judge prophetic utterances?<\/p>\n Paul also made it clear that we are to desire spiritual gifts (plural). \u00a0Prophesying and teaching are two of the gifts of the Spirit. \u00a0Paul\u2019s point is that all in the body are to be edified so it would be out of place to have Paul commanding that women should desire spiritual gifts but then have Paul refuse to allow part of the body (women) to use their gifts for the common good. \u00a0All of the body is to be edified and all of the members of the body are allowed to edify Christ\u2019s body.<\/p>\n The quote in 1 Cor. 14:34, 35 is completely out of character and out of line with both verse 36 and the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 14 that appears before these two \u201cout of place\u201d verses. \u00a0The only solution to the contradiction that these verses bring to the passage is to accept that Paul is once again quoting from the letter that the Corinthians wrote to him. \u00a0The fact that this is the longest quote that Paul makes from the letter in no way exempts it from being a quote. \u00a0It just means that it was a quote that Paul felt needed to be quoted exactly as it was written so that he could properly refute the quote in the following verses (1 Cor. 14:36-40). \u00a0If this is not a quote from the Corinthians, then what was Paul refuting in verse 36? \u00a0How could Paul possibly have made so many commands for all of us to test and discern all things (including prophesying) and then turn around and say that women were not to test the prophesying? \u00a0This would make God out to be one who contradicts His own word.<\/p>\n If women were to listen to this unclear \u201claw\u201d and refuse to use their gifts for the benefit of all, where would this leave them in the eyes of the Lord? \u00a0What happens when some refuse to edify others in the body of Christ? \u00a0Warren Wiersbe comments that the Corinthians were selfish instead of loving one another by looking for the common good. \u00a0He writes:<\/p>\n To edify means \u201cto build up.\u201d This concept is not alien to the \u201cbody\u201d image of the church; even today, we speak about \u201cbodybuilding exercises.\u201d There is an overlapping of images here, for the body of Christ is also the temple of the living God. Paul\u2019s choice of the word edify was a wise one.<\/p>\n The mistake the Corinthians were making was to emphasize their own personal edification to the neglect of the church. They wanted to build themselves up, but they did not want to build up their fellow believers. This attitude, of course, not only hurt the other Christians, but it also hurt the believers who were practicing it. After all, if we are all members of the same body, the way we relate to the other members must ultimately affect us personally. \u201cThe eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee\u201d (1 Cor. 12:21). If one member of the body is weak or infected, it will affect the other members. \u00a0 W. Wiersbe, The Bible exposition commentary. <\/em>\n<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n Body ministry requires the gifts to be used for the common good<\/em><\/strong>. \u00a0 Can you show even one scriptures where Paul or any other apostle say that women are to teach exclusively<\/em><\/strong> women and children? \u00a0Can you quote a verse that says that women are to teach, prophesy, interpret tongues for women and children alone<\/em><\/strong>? \u00a0Rather than a divided body, the body is to function with all<\/em><\/strong> the gifts for the growth of the entire body so that we grow together. \u00a0What use would it be to have huge arms on the body if the body nourishment was denied the legs? \u00a0Would puny legs that get only half the nourishment be acceptable for a healthy, well-functioning body? \u00a0Does the brain discriminate against the legs and provide only full nourishment to the arms? \u00a0Not at all. \u00a0In the same way, the body of Christ has each body member work to build up the entire body with the gifts that God has given to each one. \u00a0The leg cannot say \u201cLet the arms minister to each other. I, as a leg, don\u2019t need the work of the arms to benefit me.\u201d<\/p>\n You wrote as a quote:<\/p>\n Paul is likely forbidding women to speak up and judge prophecies (this is in line in the immediate context; cf. 1 Cor 14:29) since such an activity would subvert male headship. \u2018 Law also says\u2019. Paul is probably thinking of the woman\u2019s creation \u201cfrom\u201d or \u201cfor\u201d the man. \u00a0(see 11:8-9; Gen. 2:20-24) as well as a general pattern of male leadership among the people of Israel in the OT.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n Here I notice once again that the terms \u201clikely\u201d, \u201cprobably\u201d \u201cgeneral pattern\u201d are quoted. \u00a0This is an unclear bugle sound that cannot produce a clear prohibition<\/em><\/strong> against women who are willing to obey the command<\/em><\/strong> to test, judge and discern. \u00a0Nowhere does Paul ever say that women are exempt from the command but should trust their husbands to discern for them. \u00a0We are commanded to be mature and to think and reason for ourselves using the clear foundation of the scriptures. \u00a0And any \u201cpattern\u201d of male leadership that is \u201cgeneral\u201d but which had clear exceptions created by God Himself even within a patriarchical society, is not a \u201claw\u201d.<\/p>\n Mike, when you say that \u201cit is difficult to see this as an absolute prohibition\u201d, you show that women speaking in the assembly whether by prophesying or by judging the prophesying cannot be considered a sin. \u00a0An absolute prohibition is always a sin<\/em>. \u00a0Exceptions disprove a universal law.<\/p>\n Again you have used the term \u201clikely\u201d. However sin isn\u2019t something that we should ever be unsure about. \u00a0God has given us the terms of his law with two or three witnesses and in a clear and understandable fashion so that we can stay away from sin. \u00a0The sin defined as \u201cnot judging prophesies\u201d is not only an unclear law<\/em><\/strong> that cannot bring a judgment of sin, but it contradicts the fact that women are to judge for themselves here on earth and in the future when they too will be judging the angels<\/em><\/strong>. \u00a0Judging the world and the angels is something that the body of Christ will do \u2013 not just the men.<\/p>\n There is also no such thing as universal male \u201cheadship\u201d. \u00a0The husband is the \u201chead\u201d of the wife in a one-flesh union, but no man is the \u201chead\u201d of anyone else. \u00a0The only other \u201chead\u201d is Jesus Christ who is the \u201chead\u201d of the body. \u00a0Any other \u201cheadship\u201d is adding to God\u2019s word.<\/p>\n Without a hard and fast \u201crule\u201d that forbids women from teaching the bible to men or forbids them from serving men with their leadership abilities, there can be no charge of sin. \u00a0If there is no charge of sin, then we are not to put a stumbling block before another believer. \u00a0We are to let them serve in freedom as a servant of Christ.<\/p>\n\n
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