{"id":1225,"date":"2009-08-03T06:00:36","date_gmt":"2009-08-03T13:00:36","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/?p=1225"},"modified":"2015-10-19T20:26:25","modified_gmt":"2015-10-20T03:26:25","slug":"mike-seaver-and-cheryl-schatz-3","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/2009\/08\/03\/mike-seaver-and-cheryl-schatz-3\/","title":{"rendered":"Mike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz discuss\/debate women in ministry 3"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

<\/p>\n

\"Second<\/p>\n

This is question #2<\/em><\/strong> of a 10 question discussion\/debate between Mike Seaver<\/a><\/strong> and Cheryl Schatz on the issue of women in ministry. \u00a0The discussion will take the form of five questions posed by Cheryl Schatz with answers by Mike Seaver and then five questions posed by Mike Seaver with answers by Cheryl Schatz. \u00a0Each question and answer session will be followed up in the next post by one response each from both Mike and Cheryl. \u00a0Links to the questions and the responses will be at the bottom of this post. \u00a0Mike\u2019s corresponding post on his blog is here<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n

Question #2 by Cheryl Schatz<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

If God has a law<\/em><\/strong> that forbids godly Christian women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men, then why is this the only \u201claw\u201d that does not have a second witness? \u00a0God established the need<\/em><\/strong> for a second or third witness in Deut. 17:6 & Deut 19:15 regarding the importance of establishing a judicial matter and also for accusations of wrongdoing. \u00a0When Jesus was confronted with the law of the second witness, He subjected himself to this law in John 8:13-18 thus confirming the importance of the law requiring a second witness. \u00a0Jesus even stated that his testimony was not considered<\/em><\/strong> true without a second witness John 5:31-37. \u00a0Jesus also repeated the law in Matthew 18:16 in order to establish an important matter.<\/p>\n

Paul, like Jesus, also obeyed the law by stating that he had met the conditions of two or three witnesses in 2 Cor 13:1. \u00a0In Philippians 3:1 Paul gave the reason for why important matters need to be repeated. \u00a0The reason that repetition is necessary is that repetition is a safeguard for us. \u00a0This important principle is strictly followed in the scripture to prepare the foundation for this universal principle that all of God\u2019s universal laws to mankind are never given to us without a confirmation. \u00a0Can you explain why the only \u201claw\u201d that is not repeated is the \u201claw\u201d that forbids women from teaching men? \u00a0If you disagree that every universal law has the required two or three witnesses, can you please name even one universal law that does not have a second witness?<\/p>\n

Answer by Mike Seaver:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

I think that the idea that Scripture needs a second witness is a faulty one. \u00a0The idea of a second witness was set up for fallible finite humans who are sinful and thus have clarity in reasoning and thinking by having a second witness. \u00a0Scripture is infallible and inerrant it needs no second witness. \u00a0When Jesus says in John 5:31, \u201cIf I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true.\u201d \u00a0He is not saying that his testimony is NOT true unless he has a witness, but it is not deemed true by humans and in John 8, the Pharisees. \u00a0It seems like the questions comes down to a view of Scripture. \u00a0Is Scripture completely true or not? \u00a0Are Greek and Hebrew original writings completely without errors and completely correct in their teaching or not. \u00a0If Scripture is true, it needs not second witness to be true.<\/p>\n

As far as other theological debates go\u2026if Scripture needs a second witness than all those who hold a Millennial view of Premillennialism or Post Millennialism are out of luck because only Revelation 20 speaks of a Millennium. \u00a0Only Amillennialist bring this up\u2026usually.<\/p>\n

Also, I think the idea that more than one source is not consulted when thinking about whether or not women can be overseers\/elders\/pastors is a faulty one. \u00a0Paul, the apostle speaks about it in 1 Timothy 3:2 and in Titus 1:6. \u00a0He mentions that women should not teach or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. \u00a0The order of worship in 1 Corinthians 12-14 (specifically ch. 14) seems to speak about men being the ones leading the corporate meeting. \u00a0Acts 20 has Paul speaking to the Ephesians elders and it seems like they were all men and this is Luke writing (Acts 20:30 uses \u201cmen\u201d as who will rise up from among them). \u00a0Peter and Paul speak of male headship when it comes to marriages (1 Peter 3:1, Eph. 5:22).<\/p>\n

So, while the Bible never says, \u201cgodly women who teach right doctrine are not allowed to teach men\u201d it certainly seems to imply that there is a biblical headship and leadership that men are responsible to provide.<\/p>\n

It is great for women to use their gifts and teach. \u00a0It is just that the Bible says that women should not do this with men present.<\/p>\n

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<\/p>\n

The next post will be Cheryl\u2019s response to Mike\u2019s answer and then Mike\u2019s final rejoinder on question #2. \u00a0The responses will go up on August 5th.<\/p>\n

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<\/p>\n

Previous Links:<\/p>\n

Question #1: <\/strong>Cheryl\u2019s Question and Mike\u2019s Answer<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n

Question #1:\u00a0Responses by Cheryl and Mike to Q & A<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n

\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/body>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This is question #2 of a 10 question discussion\/debate between Mike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz on the issue of women in ministry. \u00a0The discussion will take the form of five questions posed by Cheryl Schatz with answers by Mike Seaver and then five questions posed by Mike Seaver with answers by Cheryl Schatz. \u00a0Each question and answer session will be followed up in the next post by one response each from both Mike and Cheryl. \u00a0Links to the questions and…<\/p>\n

Read More Read More<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[5,22,30,31,55,73],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1225","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-1-timothy-issues","category-challenges","category-debates","category-egalitarian-vs-complementarian","category-prejudice-in-the-church","category-women-serving-in-the-church"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"yoast_head":"\nMike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz discuss\/debate women in ministry 3 - Women in Ministry<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/strivetoenter.com\/wim\/2009\/08\/03\/mike-seaver-and-cheryl-schatz-3\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Mike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz discuss\/debate women in ministry 3 - Women in Ministry\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"This is question #2 of a 10 question discussion\/debate between Mike Seaver and Cheryl Schatz on the issue of women in ministry. \u00a0The discussion will take the form of five questions posed by Cheryl Schatz with answers by Mike Seaver and then five questions posed by Mike Seaver with answers by Cheryl Schatz. \u00a0Each question and answer session will be followed up in the next post by one response each from both Mike and Cheryl. \u00a0Links to the questions and... 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