Comments for Women In Ministry http://strivetoenter.com/wim This blog is for dialogue on the issue of women in ministry and the freedom for women to teach the bible in a public setting. It is also for questions and answers on our DVD entitled "Women in Ministry: Silenced or Set Free?" This 4 DVD set answers the hard passages of scripture that seem to restrict women's ministry. Sat, 17 May 2008 19:26:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 Comment on Scriptural fences by Don Johnson http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3417 Don Johnson Sat, 17 May 2008 16:11:58 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3417 Here is the terminology I use and how I see it. 1. There are the 12, apostles, and Scripture authors. 2. The 12 are apostles, but an apostle is not necessarily one of the 12.  Indeed they can be apostles today, but not the 12, as they are all dead. 3. The 12 were given authority to make decisions, including what is in the NT, indeed some of the 12 were Scripture authors.  John was the last survivor of the 12. 4. The 12 lost 1 of their group when Judas betrayed Jesus, in order to have 12, they needed to add 1, as these 12 map to the 12 tribes of Israel.  However, none of these final 12 were replaced when they died, such as James did but was not replaced. 4. James the brother of Jesus is called an apostle but he was not one of the 12, similarly Shaul/Paul is called an apostle but he was not one of the 12.  James became the leader of the Jerusalem church in Acts 15, even tho Peter was still around, and Paul became apostle to the gentiles even tho the first gentile to become a believer was due to Peter. Here is the terminology I use and how I see it.

1. There are the 12, apostles, and Scripture authors.

2. The 12 are apostles, but an apostle is not necessarily one of the 12.  Indeed they can be apostles today, but not the 12, as they are all dead.

3. The 12 were given authority to make decisions, including what is in the NT, indeed some of the 12 were Scripture authors.  John was the last survivor of the 12.

4. The 12 lost 1 of their group when Judas betrayed Jesus, in order to have 12, they needed to add 1, as these 12 map to the 12 tribes of Israel.  However, none of these final 12 were replaced when they died, such as James did but was not replaced.

4. James the brother of Jesus is called an apostle but he was not one of the 12, similarly Shaul/Paul is called an apostle but he was not one of the 12.  James became the leader of the Jerusalem church in Acts 15, even tho Peter was still around, and Paul became apostle to the gentiles even tho the first gentile to become a believer was due to Peter.

]]> Comment on Is “a woman” representative of “all women”? by Don Johnson http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/17/woman-representative/#comment-3416 Don Johnson Sat, 17 May 2008 14:41:39 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=231#comment-3416 I agree with most of your analysis. I think it could be improved by using the Greek terms actually in the NT and then translating them as you choose, based on the context. Also, gune does not necessarily mean "a woman".  I think this is conceding too much from the start and also making assumptions.  It is possible, but not required.  As there is no indefinite article in Greek (in English, the indefinite articles are a and an) it is POSSIBLE that "a woman" is meant, but it is also POSSIBLE that "the woman" is meant or even "a group that has the quality of being like a woman" (that is, women).  That is, the use of the definite article means the noun is definite, but the non-use of the definite article just means there are 3 possibilities, including possibly being definite.  See Wallace "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" on anarthrous nouns (anarthrous means without an article). I agree with most of your analysis.

I think it could be improved by using the Greek terms actually in the NT and then translating them as you choose, based on the context.

Also, gune does not necessarily mean “a woman”.  I think this is conceding too much from the start and also making assumptions.  It is possible, but not required.  As there is no indefinite article in Greek (in English, the indefinite articles are a and an) it is POSSIBLE that “a woman” is meant, but it is also POSSIBLE that “the woman” is meant or even “a group that has the quality of being like a woman” (that is, women). 

That is, the use of the definite article means the noun is definite, but the non-use of the definite article just means there are 3 possibilities, including possibly being definite.  See Wallace “Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics” on anarthrous nouns (anarthrous means without an article).

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by Cheryl http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3415 Cheryl Sat, 17 May 2008 05:36:42 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3415 Okay here are some questions to ponder: 1. There are two classes of apostles, the foundational apostles and all others who are sent but not specifically sent to represent Christ and his resurrection. If Paul is in the second class, not a foundational apostle why did he have so much authority to determine doctrine when no other apostle (other than the twelve) had such authority? 2. Why did Paul say that he was an apostle of Jesus Christ appointed to be a witness to the resurrection when no one else made that claim (except the twelve)? 3. Are there actually three classes of apostles? The foundational apostles who did extraordinary miracles, and were overseers of the church and created church doctrine as representatives of Christ; then secondary apostles who represented the church and were sent out to evangelize and start churches; and... Paul? 4. What class of apostle is Matthias? Is he an apostle of the church or an apostle of Jesus Christ? Who appointed him? The church is allowed to appoint apostles as representative of the church, but which scripture says that the church or the twelve may appoint one of Jesus' representatives when all the others were appointed only by Jesus? Shouldn't there be a scripture that gave them the authority to appoint Jesus' representative? If there was, where is it? 5. Is it possible that God allowed the disciples to pick a replacement for Judas and this made Matthias an apostle but God fit him into the second category (an apostle of the church) not the first category (an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ)? Is it impossible for Jesus to have placed Paul as his choice of witness to the resurrection when he was given so many revelations? 6. What difference would this all make? If Paul is a secondary apostle of the church, would he have authority to set doctrine? If we say that secondary apostles can set doctrine, then why wouldn't we think that doctrine can still be set by secondary apostles? 7. Did Paul think that he was special and equal in authority and in his commission by Jesus as were all of the other apostles of Jesus Christ? Okay here are some questions to ponder:

1. There are two classes of apostles, the foundational apostles and all others who are sent but not specifically sent to represent Christ and his resurrection. If Paul is in the second class, not a foundational apostle why did he have so much authority to determine doctrine when no other apostle (other than the twelve) had such authority?

2. Why did Paul say that he was an apostle of Jesus Christ appointed to be a witness to the resurrection when no one else made that claim (except the twelve)?

3. Are there actually three classes of apostles? The foundational apostles who did extraordinary miracles, and were overseers of the church and created church doctrine as representatives of Christ; then secondary apostles who represented the church and were sent out to evangelize and start churches; and… Paul?

4. What class of apostle is Matthias? Is he an apostle of the church or an apostle of Jesus Christ? Who appointed him? The church is allowed to appoint apostles as representative of the church, but which scripture says that the church or the twelve may appoint one of Jesus’ representatives when all the others were appointed only by Jesus? Shouldn’t there be a scripture that gave them the authority to appoint Jesus’ representative? If there was, where is it?

5. Is it possible that God allowed the disciples to pick a replacement for Judas and this made Matthias an apostle but God fit him into the second category (an apostle of the church) not the first category (an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ)? Is it impossible for Jesus to have placed Paul as his choice of witness to the resurrection when he was given so many revelations?

6. What difference would this all make? If Paul is a secondary apostle of the church, would he have authority to set doctrine? If we say that secondary apostles can set doctrine, then why wouldn’t we think that doctrine can still be set by secondary apostles?

7. Did Paul think that he was special and equal in authority and in his commission by Jesus as were all of the other apostles of Jesus Christ?

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by Paula http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3414 Paula Fri, 16 May 2008 23:20:04 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3414 Oops, that should be 2:5, not 5:5. Oops, that should be 2:5, not 5:5.

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by Paula http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3413 Paula Fri, 16 May 2008 22:35:23 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3413 Found something else in Ephesians. In 5:5 we see the phrase commonly translated "you are saved by grace". But this, like "dead to sin", is in the dative case. I went to <a href="http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gcase.html#Dative" rel="nofollow">This Grammar Link</a> and looked at the various options for the dative case here, and by process of elimination I concluded that it should read "You are the ones who have been saved <strong>because of</strong> grace!". To use "by" here is wrong because grace is the <em>cause</em>, not the <em>instrument</em>. Grace is <strong>why</strong> we are saved, not <strong>how</strong>. The <em>instrument</em> of our salvation is the death and resurrection of Jesus. Again in verse 8: "<strong>Because of</strong> grace you were saved". This may not seem like a big deal, but it points out sloppy translation that seems driven more by tradition and sometimes bias than a desire to accurately convey the words of scripture.   Found something else in Ephesians.
In 5:5 we see the phrase commonly translated “you are saved by grace”. But this, like “dead to sin”, is in the dative case. I went to This Grammar Link and looked at the various options for the dative case here, and by process of elimination I concluded that it should read “You are the ones who have been saved because of grace!”. To use “by” here is wrong because grace is the cause, not the instrument. Grace is why we are saved, not how. The instrument of our salvation is the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Again in verse 8: “Because of grace you were saved”.
This may not seem like a big deal, but it points out sloppy translation that seems driven more by tradition and sometimes bias than a desire to accurately convey the words of scripture.
 

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by Paula http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3412 Paula Fri, 16 May 2008 19:35:57 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3412 Correction: earlier I said GWTW when I was thinking of CBE. They do have a sort of primer on egal at <a href="http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/free_articles.shtml" rel="nofollow">This Link</a> though. Correction: earlier I said GWTW when I was thinking of CBE. They do have a sort of primer on egal at This Link though.

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by tiro3 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3411 tiro3 Fri, 16 May 2008 19:24:27 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3411 Interesting discussions. Regarding Paul... I also am not convinced that he was the twelfth apostle.  But I do think he carried the same HS given authority as I believe every HS gifted apostle did also.  It does seem that there was a difference between those who were apostles chosen by God as was every named apostle, and those messengers sent by the church, which would still be called apostolos in Greek.  And it would also seem that there was a special giftedness imparted by having known Christ in the flesh.   I think the twelve were specifically chosen FIRST as representative of the twelve tribes.  Secondarily, they were part of those God chose to lay the foundations for the new body of believers.  While it is interesting that Paul played such a large part according to the written records we have, we do not know fully the extent of the involvement of everyone.   Just pondering here.  :)   Interesting discussions.
Regarding Paul… I also am not convinced that he was the twelfth apostle.  But I do think he carried the same HS given authority as I believe every HS gifted apostle did also.  It does seem that there was a difference between those who were apostles chosen by God as was every named apostle, and those messengers sent by the church, which would still be called apostolos in Greek.  And it would also seem that there was a special giftedness imparted by having known Christ in the flesh.
 
I think the twelve were specifically chosen FIRST as representative of the twelve tribes.  Secondarily, they were part of those God chose to lay the foundations for the new body of believers.  While it is interesting that Paul played such a large part according to the written records we have, we do not know fully the extent of the involvement of everyone.
 
Just pondering here.  :)
 

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by Truthseeker http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3410 Truthseeker Fri, 16 May 2008 18:47:00 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3410 Cheryl (60) and Paula (61)-both of you have made great suggestions.  Paula, your 'wikki' version, egal-in-a-nutshell, or in my case-egal for dummies :)-...is great!  I like your Q and A idea, too, and the brief summaries.  Cheryl, your link with actual responses would be great, too.  I would love to read the response given to Grudem's 6 point challenge.  ( I actually don't know which/how many of you did respond to Grudem.)  I appreciate the time that those of you who have written lengthy responses have taken to do so.  I know time is precious to all of us.  Actually, I appreciate the short responses, too, because I (and others) am learning from all of what is said on these sites.  Soaking it up and pondering it all.  Nuff of my feedback and cheerleading;  just wanted you all to know how valuable your efforts are. Cheryl (60) and Paula (61)-both of you have made great suggestions.  Paula, your ‘wikki’ version, egal-in-a-nutshell, or in my case-egal for dummies :)-…is great!  I like your Q and A idea, too, and the brief summaries.  Cheryl, your link with actual responses would be great, too.  I would love to read the response given to Grudem’s 6 point challenge.  ( I actually don’t know which/how many of you did respond to Grudem.)  I appreciate the time that those of you who have written lengthy responses have taken to do so.  I know time is precious to all of us.  Actually, I appreciate the short responses, too, because I (and others) am learning from all of what is said on these sites.  Soaking it up and pondering it all.  Nuff of my feedback and cheerleading;  just wanted you all to know how valuable your efforts are.

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by Cheryl http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3409 Cheryl Fri, 16 May 2008 18:16:52 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3409 Good comments, Don. I completely agree that there were other apostles other than the ones whose mission it was to be witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. Did Paul exercise the same authority as Peter and the other apostles? Did Paul get his authority from Jesus as the 11 disciples did who were picked personally by Jesus? <blockquote> John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I <strong>Myself</strong> not choose you, the twelve..." </blockquote> Were the 12 apostles chosen personally by Jesus? Did Paul ever state that he was chosen personally by Jesus and his mission was to be a witness to gospel of the resurrection? Good comments, Don. I completely agree that there were other apostles other than the ones whose mission it was to be witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus.

Did Paul exercise the same authority as Peter and the other apostles?

Did Paul get his authority from Jesus as the 11 disciples did who were picked personally by Jesus?

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve…”

Were the 12 apostles chosen personally by Jesus?

Did Paul ever state that he was chosen personally by Jesus and his mission was to be a witness to gospel of the resurrection?

]]> Comment on Scriptural fences by Don Johnson http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/05/14/scriptural-fences/#comment-3408 Don Johnson Fri, 16 May 2008 18:08:22 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=230#comment-3408 Everyone who wrote any books in the NT was inspired by God when they did it.  This does not mean they could never make a mistake, only Jesus has that attribute.  Since anyone might at anytime make a mistake (except when authoring Scripture), the solution is to give this authority of making decisions to the whole leadership. Paul verified his teaching with the apostles. And it was also veriried with signs and wonders to his listeners. Peter said his collected writings were Scripture.  Paul is my hero, so I do not want to diminish him in any way, but I do not see him as one of the 12. P.S. The author of James is thought to be the brother of Jesus, not the brother of John and he was not one of the 11 but is an apostle. Everyone who wrote any books in the NT was inspired by God when they did it.  This does not mean they could never make a mistake, only Jesus has that attribute.  Since anyone might at anytime make a mistake (except when authoring Scripture), the solution is to give this authority of making decisions to the whole leadership.

Paul verified his teaching with the apostles. And it was also veriried with signs and wonders to his listeners. Peter said his collected writings were Scripture.  Paul is my hero, so I do not want to diminish him in any way, but I do not see him as one of the 12.

P.S. The author of James is thought to be the brother of Jesus, not the brother of John and he was not one of the 11 but is an apostle.

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