I have been in an apologetics ministry since 1988 helping people find freedom from the cults. In the spring of 2004 I was challenged by a friend’s comment that women cannot teach the bible to men in a public setting. For two years I researched the Bible’s position on a woman’s freedom to teach the scriptures as well as relevant historical sources that shed light on the hard passages of scripture regarding women in ministry.
My research on this subject resulted in a script that dealt with each hard passage verse by verse. From the script a 4 DVD multi-media teaching series was produced called “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” Since WIM was released in the spring of 2006 I have been contacted by Pastors as well as Christians in all walks of life regarding the effects that this series has had on them. The comments have ranged from thought-provoking to life-changing. A preview video clip of the introduction to the series can be seen at www.mmoutreach.org/wim.htm.
My web sites are www.mmoutreach.org and www.jwinfoline.com. I can be reached through email at mmoutreach (AT) gmail (DOT) com or use the contact form on the contact page tab above.
Blessings!
Cheryl Schatz
MM Outreach
Hello
I was wondering about 1 Timothy 2:11-14, could it be that this woman teached another doctrine than the one described in verses 13-14.
What I mean is, maybe she taught that Adam was deceived or something similar.
I’m not a Greek scholar, but just had this thought, please enlighten me.
PS Great DVD set!!! I’m showing it to everybody who will listen and search for the truth, like in Acts 17:11.
In Christ
Martin Willemoes Hansen
Hi Martin,
The false doctrine that the woman taught (1 Timothy 2:12) that led to Paul’s prohibiting her from instructing the man probably fit in with the false doctrine described in 1 Timothy 1. It appears that the false doctrine rampant in Ephesus centered around myths and endless genealogies (1 Timothy 1:4) and misunderstandings concerning the law (1 Timothy 1:7). Some have speculated on the nature of the deception, but it seems more important to Paul to stop her from teaching her false doctrine and thereby influencing the man with her deception. Paul makes a strong point that she is to be taught the truth as sound doctrine will keep her safe from the deception. Rather than Paul’s taking time to expose the exact error that she taught, he emphasises the process of her coming free from her error through learning sound doctrine and by holding onto Jesus our Lord and Savior.
I have read some things regarding what some speculate regarding her error, however I have not been convinced that they are correct nor do I think it important. Error is error and Paul’s point is that she be given the opportunity to be taught truth so that she will have salvation through Jesus.
Thank you for your kind comments on our 4 DVD set on women in ministry. It is our prayer that many women will find freedom in Christ to minister in their gifts because of the sound teaching in this series. It is also our prayer that men will have their eyes opened so that they too will be willing to release women into the ministry for the sake of the body of Christ.
So, I’m curious - given that you are involved in apologetics and the position that you’re advocating don’t you think it would be important to have a doctrinal statement of some sort? Is there a confession you subscribe to? I assume you operate under the authority of a local church, which one? Do they have a doctrinal statement?
(And yes, I would ask all of these things of any ministry, it’s not unique to you because of the area you focus in.)
Hello Shamgar,
The doctrinal statement for our ministry is located here http://mmoutreachinc.com/catalog/statefaith.html
The statement of faith for our denomination is here http://www.paoc.org/
One of our Pastors and also a teaching Prof has endorsed my DVD as well as our ministry and you can see the recommendations here. http://www.moutreach.org/wim.htm
I hope that helps and thanks for stopping by.
Cheryl
Dear Sister Cheryl,
I live in Tennessee, USA. I read your awesome article on the are-sisters-free-to-function blog.
Re your discussion that “head” means “source”, do you have the citations for your references to Indicopleustes, Photius, Orphicorum Fragmenta, vol. 2, Augustine, and Cyril of Alexandria, De Recta fide ad Pulcheriam et Eudociam?
I really want to read the original sources. I have been trying to find De Recta Fide for a very long time.
I sure would like to have on-line editions of these works.
Have you seen Dr. Ann Nyland’s new translation,The Source New Testament? Her Ph.D. is in Biblical Greek Lexicography. She has studied the recently discovered papyri and inscriptions which showed, for the first time, what many N.T. Greek words really mean. These correct meanings are used in The source. The text only ed. of The Source is on-line at http://www.godswordtowomen.org
Joanna
I have a copy of The Source New Testament. It is well worth the money to have the printed copy with all her excellent notes.
Hello Joanna and welcome!
Sorry it has taken awhile for me to answer this. I have been up to my ears in painting cupboards all day as we are getting our home ready for sale.
My main historical source that I have done primary research in is the Talmud. I do have the early church fathers on CD as well but it is on my main computer which is right now located at our new home (and I am in the old one waiting for it to sell). I must credit Catherine Clark Kroeger for the original research. I had all of the books and page numbers at my fingertips and now I can’t find them. I think they got packed as we have been boxing up almost everything we have and only leaving the very bare necessities. When I do find it eventually, I can let you know where the information is located. Probably though the best thing would be to see if you can get in contact with Catherine. She is an adjunct associate professor of Classical and Ministry Studies at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. Here is a page that has information on her and I am sure that she can be contacted via the seminary. http://www.gordonconwell.edu/faculty/kroeger.php She has done a lot of research work that has become invaluable regarding the women’s issue.
Regarding Ann Nyland’s translation, I have only briefly looked at it online and that was months ago when I had a life
I wish I had more time for research right now, but with our ministry move it has been very difficult to do more than just the basics. Once our move is completed, I would like to do much more research as I have another couple of DVD’s percolating in my mind that I would like to produce on the women’s issue and that will have to be balanced out by my regular ministry work, so we will see how that goes.
Anyway thanks for popping by and introducing yourself. I hope that you will feel at home here and will meet many others of like mind.
It is very encouraging to see something approaching critical thought in Evangelical Christianity. For
too long now , there has been a “leave your brain at
the door” attitude concerning scripture. Accept the
writings of the apostle Paul at face value , or risk
censure and even charges of heresy. From what I have
seen here at your site , it’s a breath of fresh air…
Thank you h.lecture for your comment!
Cheryl,
I’m currently doing research for a paper on women
in ministry. It will document the struggle of
women in an evangelical culture that is largely
patriarchal in structure. If I can be so bold as
to ask , may I cite you as a source in my paper?
Also , do you know of other scholars who refute
Moore’s position that there is no exegetical
argument for the ordination of women?
Respectfully,
H.
Hello “H”,
You may quote me as a source in your paper. I would be honored to have you do that. I would also recommend Dr. Sarah Sumner’s book. It is called “Men and Women in the church.” Also Rebecca Merrill Groothuis has written several books and articles on the gender issue. “Good News for Women” is a good book to read. Contact info for Rebecca is at http://www.ivpress.com/groothuis/rebecca/ under “about rebecca”. Info on Dr. Sumner is at http://www.apu.edu/theology/faculty/ssumner/ and she can be reached at ssumner@apu.edu
I hope all goes well with your paper!
Cheryl
Cheryl,
I almost forgot,and it’s really just an academic
formality. When I cite you in my paper , what should
I include in the way of credentials? Your reasoning
is cogent and well supported. Your two years of
diligent inquiry has yielded much that will edify
The Body of Christ…
With all civility and respect,
H.
Hey there “H”,
My credentials? I would have to give my credentials as 1 Corinthians 1:27-29. Other than that I am an apologist since 1988 working with Jehovah’s Witnesses and ex-JW’s to bring them to an understanding of the basic Christian doctrines that have been hidden to them because of cult indoctrination. I have been called to defend the faith in the trenches reaching those who have been the most difficult to reach. The best part is that God did not look down on me because of my gender but He called me into the battle field and it was our Lord and Savior who equipped me with the gift of an ability to reason and He enlarged my heart to have compassion and He made me stubbornly persistent to not leave the scriptures until I knew that I knew that I knew that I understood. I hope that will be credentials enough for your professors
At your service,
Cheryl
Cheryl,
Thank you so much for your candor and timely
reply. I have never for one instant doubted your
credibility or faculty for reason. To say that one
must have a string of letters after one’s name in
order to ensure credence is pure piffle. You might
as well say that because Gershwin didn’t study at
a prestigious conservatory, his body of work
had no impact on 20th century music genre…
Respectfully,
H.
H,
You are welcome!
Humbly in His service,
Cheryl
I consider it quite possible that “Hannibal Lecture” is a pseudonym patterned after “Hannibal Lector” the psychotic killer in “Silence of the Lambs” At the best, such a pseudonym is in poor taste for a Christian website.
Just wanted you to know.
Thanks Don! I wouldn’t know. I don’t watch movies like that. Since it is “lecture” not “Lector”, I will let him deal with that. Hmmmm….are you suggesting I keep my doors locked?
Oh and yes, Don, I did get that you were aiming your comments at “H” and not at me. By the way, welcome to this blog!
Cheryl,
I am a Free Methodist pastor in WNY and just found your blog. One of our bishops just wrote a booklet last year entitled “Is There Room for She in Shepherd.” It is an excellent apologetic regarding this issue. I can attest in my own life that God does call women into pastoral ministry, and many people are beginning to recognize that Jesus Christ offered salvation to women also.
Leadership in the Church is given as a gift to all believers, not just to the men. Not every person is called to preach and teach or even lead, but God does not limit that call to men only. It is us humans that do so.
Pastor Darlene,
Welcome to this blog! There are many other Pastors here too who are working through the issues and finding freedom in Christ for women to serve in their gifts. Some have been complementarian all of their lives and just now understanding that God has not set a locked and barred window around one gender in essence barring them from obediently using their God-given gifts for the benefit of their brothers in Christ.
Is the booklet that you refer to on line?
No, but here is a brief synopsis of it.
The Female Pastor: Is There Room for She in Shepherd?
Bishop David Kendall and Associate Professor Karen Strand Winslow.
They use critical Bible references and denominational history to make a case for women in ministry at all levels. Bishop Emeritus Donald N. Bastian in the foreword states “a deserving read for those who may be perplexed and who wonder what biblical perspectives they should embrace on this subject …”
“The essential verses with commentary are front and center. If you can’t sort out your thinking based on this material, we have more of a problem than any of us dreamed.” — Les Krober, bishop emeritus and Free Methodist pastor
Available individually ($1.50) or in 10-packs ($13.99). Order online at http://www.llcom.net — click on Store, then FM Resources.
Thanks Pastor Darlene, that is helpful to all of us here I am sure. My DVD “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” (available on amazon.com or at mmoutreach.org) does not specifically deal with all the scriptures where women are used but it does deal with the really hard passages that seem to stop women from using their gifts for the benefit of men in the congregation. It is a must-see for anyone who has had the hard passages of Paul thrown back in their face. For those of us who believe very strongly in the complete inspiration of scripture, it is a wonderful resource to see that the inspired words in their context and the inspired grammar actually affirms women in ministry and does not restrict them.
Blessings!
Cheryl
I was recently at a symposium “Gender and the Bible
Pressing Issues and Future Concerns.” One of the lectures by Gordon Fee was in regards to the understanding of the word “head” in the Bible. We postmodern westerners tend to view this to be defined as “authority”, Gordon Fee stated that at the time period of the Pauline letters, the word was understood to mean “life.” The head was the symbol of life force. He and Catherine Kroeger both gave examples from art and archeological evidence that substantiated their claims. It gives a whole new dimension to Ephesians 5. If you substitute the word “life” for “head”, it gives a different understanding to the text, which I agree with Fee is the true meaning of the text. Husbands were to give life (provision, care) to their wives just as Christ gave Life to the Church.
Pretty powerful.
Pastor Darlene,
Yes that is a powerful word picture! I have another DVD series that I would like to do on marriage and authority and I want to make this very visual so that people can really understand the powerful message of a husband’s love and care for his wife just as Jesus loves and cares for his bride.
Dear Cheryl:
I read with interest your statement about women in ministry. You might be interested to know that Southern Baptists in the 1700s had a church with eldresses. The Sandy Creek Baptist Church, founded in 1755 by Elder Shubal Stearns who had been converted under Ev. George Whitefield in 1740 in Boston, had Eldresses. Elder Stearns’ sister, Martha Stearns Marshall and anothr lady were recognized as Eldresses an exhorted the congregation without seeming to usurp authorit or the men (as the historian Morgan Edwards puts it).
I wrote and delivered an address on the biblical case for Eldresses, while serving as chairman of the Historical Committee of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina in 1985. The state Baptist paper, The Biblical Recorder, made a single reference to the speech, even though at the time it was under the control of libs/moderates.
Naturally, the conservatives did not refer to it either. Neither did they ever try to persuade me of my error. I suspect that they were afraid to try. Man’s innate depravity keeps him from seeing the depth of Holy Scripture. The blinders of prejudice keep people from seeing the trth concealed within the pages of Holy Writ, sometimes when it is there in plain sight. Best Wishes,
By His grace,
Jim Willingham
“… Southern Baptists in the 1700s had a church with eldresses..”
Wow, I never new that, That’s Great! It shows that this issue is not a new 1960’s thing! I truely believe their has always been True Christians down through the Church age who really understood The Apostle Paul!
Also look at the book of Revelation with the 7 churches!
Revelation Cha 2.
18And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, Who has eyes that flash like a flame of fire, and Whose feet glow like bright and burnished and white-hot bronze:(F)
19I know your record and what you are doing, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your recent works are more numerous and greater than your first ones.
20But I have this against you: that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess [claiming to be inspired], and who is teaching and leading astray my servants and beguiling them into practicing sexual vice and eating food sacrificed to idols. [I Kings 16:31; II Kings 9:22, 30.]
21I gave her time to repent, but she has no desire to repent of her immorality [symbolic of idolatry] and refuses to do so.
22Take note: I will throw her on a bed [[a]of anguish], and those who commit adultery with her [her paramours] I will bring down to [b]pressing distress and severe affliction, unless they turn away their minds from conduct [such as] hers and repent of [c]their doings.
23And I will strike her children (her proper followers) dead [thoroughly exterminating them]. And all the assemblies (churches) shall recognize and understand that I am He Who searches minds (the thoughts, feelings, and purposes) and the [inmost] hearts, and I will give to each of you [the reward for what you have done] as your work deserves.(G)
24But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not explored and known the depths of Satan, as they say–I tell you that I do not lay upon you any other [fresh] burden:
25Only hold fast to what you have until I come.
26And he who overcomes (is victorious) and who obeys My commands to the [very] end [doing the works that please Me], I will give him authority and power over the nations;
27And he shall rule them with a sceptre (rod) of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, and [his power over them shall be] like that which I Myself have received from My Father;(H)
28And I will give him the Morning Star.
29He who is able to hear, let him
If you notice this would have been the prefect time to quote 1 Tim 2 right BUT it doesn’t! Women were teaching in that Church, That one Woman who was teaching is being rebuked for teaching error, it has nothing about that she can’t teach because she is a woman, Gender is not an issue here at all but the teaching! The texts tells us the error…sexual sin and idols etc. Nothing more is implyed!
We can all learn from thoses 7 churches!
Dr. Willingham,
Thank you so much for that information. I have sent you a private email as well.
Dear Cheryl:
Unfortunately my address on “Eldresses” is not in print. I have only a typed copy and not enough experience with computers to even attempt an e-mail with an attachment. I am not electronically or mathematically inclined. My field is the intellect (American Social & intellectual history, Black History, church history, theology, New Testament, Old Testament, preaching & counseling), but I have a very difficult time with computers etc. I can type and fairly well, but tis dell keyboard is the sorriest thing threre is. My old compaq keyboard is a dream to use, but that computer is not on line.
You might be interested to know that I have come across references to eldresses in early church history (I did 6 years of research in church history, covering more than 250 sources & accumulating some 3000 5×8 note cards -6,000 pages of writing). I do suggest that a spirit of humility is needed. Many who advocate women in minitry are radical feminists who are willing to call any man a male chauvinist pig (an interesting experience for me) Also some in the ministry want to make God feminine and call her Sophia???While I think the feminine and masculine attributes have their origin in God, I do not think it wise to alter what God has revealed. A thus sayeth the Lord is advisable to keep us from the perils of subjectivism. Even so there is still enough to recognize that God can and does call women to minister just as He does men.
But not every woman is called to preach or pastor just as the case is with men, but all are called to minister and be witnesses. We are servants, not Lords & Masters. Some men forget that fact. Both men & women in positions of leadership can forget their servanthood status. I must close. God grant you grace.
by His grace,
Jim Willingham
Dr. Willingham,
I whole-heartedly agree with you. My passion has been for the unaltered word of God taken as it is written in context and with the God-inspired words. It greatly bothers me that some have muddied the waters by mixing in radical feminism into the issue of women in the church. The proper way is not to follow the world but to work hard at understanding God’s purpose and his plan through the holy scriptures so that we can settle this conflict in the church once and for all. The radical complementarians who reject women’s gifts are to blame for holding women back in the body of Christ, while the radical feminists who accuse Paul of being a chauvinist pig and who choose to ignore scripture rather than work on the inspired context are also to blame for the disrepute that has caused some to paint the whole egalitarian movement with. May God help us to get the message out that his Holy Spirit has gifted and empowered women for the benefit of both men and women in the body of Christ because he loves us and wants his best for us. Whomever God gifts and sends forth with his message is God’s gift of love to us regardless of their gender, regardless of their nationality and regardless of their social standing or their education. When we all get that message and we are humble enough to learn from others not quite like us, the church will go forth in the full power of the Holy Spirit.
I greatly appreciate you stopping by my blog. I would like to do a post on some of the information that I have found regarding the 250 year old Baptist church, perhaps sometime early in the New Year. I would welcome any comments you have at that time or subject and the information needs to get out.
Blessings!
Cheryl
Dr Willingham,
Excellent information. I have a friend who is retired that might be interested in helping you to get your information typed up and/or on the computer.
Let me know and I’ll ask her to email Cheryl who could send the info on to you.
Dear Cheryl: I wish I could respond, but I am in the midst of several projects. I.e., I am working on a message on Rev.3:20 my conversion text (50 yeas ago this past Dec.7) and plan to preach on it & Acts 16:14 on my physical birthday, Dec.30, supplying a pulpit. And then I am preoccupied with thinking & planning for my mss on The Intellectualism of the Bible” so I cannot get very much involved in other things. I hope to make my address on Eldresses the crowning conclusion to the book which is really a work on the nature and effect or application of biblical teachings. So I am tied up for now. Sincerely yours by His grace, Jim W. Thanks to the person about the possible help on the computer. Perhaps later.
Happy Birthday, in case I forget to say so on the 30th Dr. Willingham.
I look forward to seeing the book in print. And any time you might need some help, I know at least one person who would be interested. She is writing a book herself, but somewhat different I’m told.
Here’s an interesting paragraph from an article I found after doing a Google search of “Elderesses in the Southern Baptist Convention”:
“Women assumed a more prominent role among the Separate Baptists. There were elderesses and deaconesses, and some women also preached and prayed in public. The role of women at Sandy Creek was initially problematic for the Charlestonian Baptists.” (see http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/6984.article)
I’d certainly be interested in obtaining that address regarding elderesses in the SBC.
Dr. Willingham,
Yes, I do understand about busyness. I am up to my ears in a couple of projects and working late hours myself.
Justa Berean,
Thanks for popping in and offering help. What a special thing that was for me to see. I especially like the people who come to this blog as they seem to be some of the nicest people I have ever “met”.
Dusman,
Nice to see you around again, my friend. I will have a look at the link you provided.
Cheryl
Hey Cheryl
I’ve enjoyed a wee look over your website. It’s cool. Thanks for all your efforts.
When I was a student I remember being asked at a church door, “Are you going to be a Woman Minister?” I thought “Duh! No, maybe I’ll get a sex change before the ordination”. However that was about sixteen years ago. Now? I forget I’m a Woman Minister! It’s rarely an issue except this week when I’ve realised being a woman makes it harder for me to liaise with the local mosque about something. I used to get very involved in trying to win debates about the whole thing, or else just felt terribly sore and hurt that many of my lovely Christian brothers who share my evangelical faith would (though they graciously didn’t usually say so) feel that by becoming a minister I was sinning. The best advice I got was from a more experienced (male) minister who just said “Be the best you can be and then they’ll find themselves saying to themselves, “But what about Anne?”.” It was very helpful. Now? Well I’m one of the boys, working as chaplain to about 500 male prisoners and loving it! Virtually all of them are blissfully unaware there’s anything controversial about it! Ax
Welcome Anne!
The advice that you received was very wise advice. While I do believe very strongly that we need to give an answer for why we believe we are allowed to use our God-given gifts in the body of Christ, I also agree that there comes a time that we need to just be about our Father’s business and stop paying any attention to those who would hold us back. If we find ourselves constantly giving attention to the prejudice of those who have not yet had their eyes opened to the emancipation of women, then we will be stuck on their level and will not progress as freely in the work that God has given us to do. One of my favorite verses that deals with this is from the Apostle Paul. In 1 Corinthians 14 after telling the church that everyone is allowed the freedom to prophesy publicly, Paul contrasted the commands of God (multiple verses in 1 Cor. 14 releasing women to prophesy and use their gifts in the assembly) and the command of man (1 Cor. 14:34, 35 is a quote from the Corinthian’s letter to Paul and the quote is refuted in verse 36) he tells us that those who refuse to recognize the commands throughout chapter 14 that free women to serve the body, as coming from the Lord, should themselves be ignored.
1Co 14:37 (ISV) If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
1 Corinthians 14:38 (ISV) But if anyone ignores this, he should be ignored.
I guess that gives us the reason to just ignore them and be about our Father’s business.