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	<title>Comments on: Questions of faith for semi-egalitarians</title>
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	<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/</link>
	<description>This blog is for dialogue on the issue of women in ministry and the freedom for women to teach the bible in a public setting.  It is also for questions and answers on our DVD entitled "Women in Ministry: Silenced or Set Free?"  This 4 DVD set answers the hard passages of scripture that seem to restrict women's ministry.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Schatz</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4560</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Schatz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4560</guid>
		<description>tiro,

Excellent observations!  Thanks for posting them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tiro,</p>
<p>Excellent observations!  Thanks for posting them.</p>
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		<title>By: tiro</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4559</link>
		<dc:creator>tiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4559</guid>
		<description>In my understanding of the OT Covenant, there were three official positions of spiritual leadership for the nation: The Prophet of the era, The Judge of the Nation, and the High Priest.  The High Priest and the Judge were equal in authority although operating in different spheres.  The Prophet was the highest or most authoritative as that person would be led of God to appoint a High Priest or The Judge of the Nation.  Deborah in effect as well as I think two others in history, held the positions of the most authoritative leadership in her time.

Sometimes, people confuse her position with that of the local civil judges. But they were never named in Scriptures, just referred to.  It was The Judge of the Nation that was chosen by God and named in Scripture,  that assisted the civil judges in cases too difficult for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my understanding of the OT Covenant, there were three official positions of spiritual leadership for the nation: The Prophet of the era, The Judge of the Nation, and the High Priest.  The High Priest and the Judge were equal in authority although operating in different spheres.  The Prophet was the highest or most authoritative as that person would be led of God to appoint a High Priest or The Judge of the Nation.  Deborah in effect as well as I think two others in history, held the positions of the most authoritative leadership in her time.</p>
<p>Sometimes, people confuse her position with that of the local civil judges. But they were never named in Scriptures, just referred to.  It was The Judge of the Nation that was chosen by God and named in Scripture,  that assisted the civil judges in cases too difficult for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4556</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4556</guid>
		<description>Yes, I know.  But this is what Grudem's EFBT says.  I see it as man's tradition negating what Scripture teaches.  This is a part of why they do not see themselves as inconsistent.  Standing outside, WE can see it, but standing inside, they cannot see it.

As R. Groothuis points out, there are NO exceptions in God's choices; God does not make a rule and then make an exception. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I know.  But this is what Grudem&#8217;s EFBT says.  I see it as man&#8217;s tradition negating what Scripture teaches.  This is a part of why they do not see themselves as inconsistent.  Standing outside, WE can see it, but standing inside, they cannot see it.</p>
<p>As R. Groothuis points out, there are NO exceptions in God&#8217;s choices; God does not make a rule and then make an exception. </p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Schatz</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4555</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Schatz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4555</guid>
		<description>Where does God say that Deborah as a Judge or Huldah as a Prophet were picked because there were no male leaders?  Does doesn't say this.  Huldah was picked even though Jeremiah had been a Prophet in Israel for 5 years.  The book of Judges says that the LORD raised up judges for a purpose:

Judges 2:16  Then the LORD raised up judges who delivered them from the hands of those who plundered them. 

The purpose was not to show that there were no male leaders.  This is foreign to the text.  In fact this is the one verse that was the final straw for my Pastor that caused him to accept women in ministry.  He reasoned that if God was the only who installed the Judges per Judges 2:16 and he chose to install Deborah, then Deborah was a valid Judge to deliver Israel just as were all the other God-ordained Judges.  

The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge says this about the judges:

The shophetim were not judges in the usual sense of the term; but were heads or chiefs of the Israelites, raised up on extraordinary occasions, who directed and ruled the nation with sovereign power, administered justice, made peace or war, and led the armies over whom they presided.

Deborah did indeed rule with sovereign power as God raised her up for that purpose.  To state a purpose of Deborah that is not stated in scripture (that she was only there to put men to shame since every man was unavailable), we do a great disservice to the scriptures by adding to the scriptures.  

God always has reserved men for himself.  Elijah thought he was alone but there were 7,000 others that the Lord reserved for himself (Romans 11:3, 4).  To say that there was not even one man in Israel that was godly, is to say that God could not raise up one of the men that he had reserved for himself.  That makes God much less Sovereign that he truly is.  My Pastor has stated that the one who God raises up, is who we are to accept.  If God can choose a woman, then we are not to reject God's choice.  Who are we to tell God what he can and cannot do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where does God say that Deborah as a Judge or Huldah as a Prophet were picked because there were no male leaders?  Does doesn&#8217;t say this.  Huldah was picked even though Jeremiah had been a Prophet in Israel for 5 years.  The book of Judges says that the LORD raised up judges for a purpose:</p>
<p>Judges 2:16  Then the LORD raised up judges who delivered them from the hands of those who plundered them. </p>
<p>The purpose was not to show that there were no male leaders.  This is foreign to the text.  In fact this is the one verse that was the final straw for my Pastor that caused him to accept women in ministry.  He reasoned that if God was the only who installed the Judges per Judges 2:16 and he chose to install Deborah, then Deborah was a valid Judge to deliver Israel just as were all the other God-ordained Judges.  </p>
<p>The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge says this about the judges:</p>
<p>The shophetim were not judges in the usual sense of the term; but were heads or chiefs of the Israelites, raised up on extraordinary occasions, who directed and ruled the nation with sovereign power, administered justice, made peace or war, and led the armies over whom they presided.</p>
<p>Deborah did indeed rule with sovereign power as God raised her up for that purpose.  To state a purpose of Deborah that is not stated in scripture (that she was only there to put men to shame since every man was unavailable), we do a great disservice to the scriptures by adding to the scriptures.  </p>
<p>God always has reserved men for himself.  Elijah thought he was alone but there were 7,000 others that the Lord reserved for himself (Romans 11:3, 4).  To say that there was not even one man in Israel that was godly, is to say that God could not raise up one of the men that he had reserved for himself.  That makes God much less Sovereign that he truly is.  My Pastor has stated that the one who God raises up, is who we are to accept.  If God can choose a woman, then we are not to reject God&#8217;s choice.  Who are we to tell God what he can and cannot do?</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4554</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4554</guid>
		<description>I agree that this aspect is inconsistent, but it does not seem so to them, this is similar to how CBMW responds: "Judges is not a book to derive doctrine, it was a time of ups and downs.  It does not say that Deborah taught men or ruled men.  Picking Deborah was a rebuke for the absence of male leadership."

In other words, they see her as an exceptional case and work to limit the implications within their worldview.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that this aspect is inconsistent, but it does not seem so to them, this is similar to how CBMW responds: &#8220;Judges is not a book to derive doctrine, it was a time of ups and downs.  It does not say that Deborah taught men or ruled men.  Picking Deborah was a rebuke for the absence of male leadership.&#8221;</p>
<p>In other words, they see her as an exceptional case and work to limit the implications within their worldview.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Schatz</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4553</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Schatz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4553</guid>
		<description>Creation order also implies created for different purposes.  If this is so that women were not created for leadership but only created to follow the leadership of men, then it wouldn't matter what realm the leadership is in - it is outlawed by creation.  Once again CBMW has problems.  The "law" is either from creation and covers all aspects of life (there being no "church" in the garden), or we have misread Paul. 

The problem is that we have come to see the value of women and it would be difficult if not impossible to go back to a place where women's opinion was not valued even enough to allow them to vote.  IF CBMW's position was consistent, it wouldn't take so much work to try to explain how a woman can be a VP but cannot be a bible study leader in her own home.  This is beyond inconsistent.  It is irrational.  If God cannot speak through a woman to teach the truth from scripture, then how could he speak through a woman VP or a woman president?  If God doesn't speak through women, then why on earth would we allow them to teach other women and children?  Let's just do away with women teachers all together and have only men.  This is the consistent position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Creation order also implies created for different purposes.  If this is so that women were not created for leadership but only created to follow the leadership of men, then it wouldn&#8217;t matter what realm the leadership is in - it is outlawed by creation.  Once again CBMW has problems.  The &#8220;law&#8221; is either from creation and covers all aspects of life (there being no &#8220;church&#8221; in the garden), or we have misread Paul. </p>
<p>The problem is that we have come to see the value of women and it would be difficult if not impossible to go back to a place where women&#8217;s opinion was not valued even enough to allow them to vote.  IF CBMW&#8217;s position was consistent, it wouldn&#8217;t take so much work to try to explain how a woman can be a VP but cannot be a bible study leader in her own home.  This is beyond inconsistent.  It is irrational.  If God cannot speak through a woman to teach the truth from scripture, then how could he speak through a woman VP or a woman president?  If God doesn&#8217;t speak through women, then why on earth would we allow them to teach other women and children?  Let&#8217;s just do away with women teachers all together and have only men.  This is the consistent position.</p>
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		<title>By: Lin</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4552</link>
		<dc:creator>Lin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4552</guid>
		<description>"Because the Bible does not use the supposed creation order to discuss society order, neither should we. In society it may be the case that men are desired as leaders as a general statement, but they are not always requiired. However, the creation order IS used when discussing family and church order" 

But this position is not consistent from a creation order standpoint because of Deborah and others since Israel was a Theocracy. Civil and spiritual were not separated in Israel. So they really are not being consistent when they use creation order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Because the Bible does not use the supposed creation order to discuss society order, neither should we. In society it may be the case that men are desired as leaders as a general statement, but they are not always requiired. However, the creation order IS used when discussing family and church order&#8221; </p>
<p>But this position is not consistent from a creation order standpoint because of Deborah and others since Israel was a Theocracy. Civil and spiritual were not separated in Israel. So they really are not being consistent when they use creation order.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4551</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4551</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.thetruthproject.org/" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.thetruthproject.org/&lt;/a&gt;

It is from FOTF.  I have heard of it but many details are lacking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.thetruthproject.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thetruthproject.org/</a></p>
<p>It is from FOTF.  I have heard of it but many details are lacking.</p>
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		<title>By: gengwall</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4550</link>
		<dc:creator>gengwall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:29:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4550</guid>
		<description>Have any of you seen "The Truth Project" series of lectures? The premise put forward there is that God has ordained a number of structures in our world - marriage, family, church, business, government - and that the rules for one can't be superimposed on any other. In that "world view", it would be perfectly acceptable for Gov. Palin to be VIce President but still be kept silent in church (I don't mean to suggest that TTP takes that position, only that they allow for separate rules in each institution), and be under the leadership of her husband in the home (which I am not necessarily sure &lt;em&gt;isn't&lt;/em&gt; the arrangement in the Palin home.) I'm not going anywhere with this - I Just thought it an interesting perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have any of you seen &#8220;The Truth Project&#8221; series of lectures? The premise put forward there is that God has ordained a number of structures in our world - marriage, family, church, business, government - and that the rules for one can&#8217;t be superimposed on any other. In that &#8220;world view&#8221;, it would be perfectly acceptable for Gov. Palin to be VIce President but still be kept silent in church (I don&#8217;t mean to suggest that TTP takes that position, only that they allow for separate rules in each institution), and be under the leadership of her husband in the home (which I am not necessarily sure <em>isn&#8217;t</em> the arrangement in the Palin home.) I&#8217;m not going anywhere with this - I Just thought it an interesting perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/28/semi-egalitarians/#comment-4549</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=529#comment-4549</guid>
		<description>Putting on the CBMW hat as best I can:
"Because the Bible does not use the supposed creation order to discuss society order, neither should we.  In society it may be the case that men are desired as leaders as a general statement, but they are not always requiired.  However, the creation order IS used when discussing family and church order."

Note that I do not agree with this argument, as I do not accept the supposed creation order.  But this is what I see CBMW as saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Putting on the CBMW hat as best I can:<br />
&#8220;Because the Bible does not use the supposed creation order to discuss society order, neither should we.  In society it may be the case that men are desired as leaders as a general statement, but they are not always requiired.  However, the creation order IS used when discussing family and church order.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note that I do not agree with this argument, as I do not accept the supposed creation order.  But this is what I see CBMW as saying.</p>
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