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	<title>Comments on: Noodling with the Greek grammar in 1 Timothy 2:15</title>
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	<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/</link>
	<description>This blog is for dialogue on the issue of women in ministry and the freedom for women to teach the bible in a public setting.  It is also for questions and answers on our DVD entitled "Women in Ministry: Silenced or Set Free?"  This 4 DVD set answers the hard passages of scripture that seem to restrict women's ministry.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Schatz</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-4044</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Schatz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-4044</guid>
		<description>Thanks Don!  It looks like a substantial piece of work.  I haven't had the time to read it yet as I am in the final stages of editing work, but I will save it for later and it is listed here for anyone else who would like to have a look at a scholarly work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Don!  It looks like a substantial piece of work.  I haven&#8217;t had the time to read it yet as I am in the final stages of editing work, but I will save it for later and it is listed here for anyone else who would like to have a look at a scholarly work.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-4041</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-4041</guid>
		<description>http://www.linguistsoftware.com/payneessays.htm

has a great new article on 1 Tim 2.  I post it here as this is the most recent discussion on 1 Tim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.linguistsoftware.com/payneessays.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.linguistsoftware.com/payneessays.htm</a></p>
<p>has a great new article on 1 Tim 2.  I post it here as this is the most recent discussion on 1 Tim.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3866</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:50:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3866</guid>
		<description>The man was the paterfamilias of a family, as such he was in charge of his wife, kids and slaves.  Paul addresses comments to all 6 roles and puts the weaker of each pair first in his discussion, in the position of honor.  The cultural assumption would be you just tell the man and he can take care of the rest of the details, but Paul does not do that.  The man in that culture has effectively no limits over his household but Paul gives limits.  This was revolutionary, but may not seem so today, it may seem like Paul is just giving good advice, which he is doing, but he is doing a lot more than that.

This is why I consider it essential to know the 1st century context when interpreting these verses, so many so-called teachers do not do that and miss a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The man was the paterfamilias of a family, as such he was in charge of his wife, kids and slaves.  Paul addresses comments to all 6 roles and puts the weaker of each pair first in his discussion, in the position of honor.  The cultural assumption would be you just tell the man and he can take care of the rest of the details, but Paul does not do that.  The man in that culture has effectively no limits over his household but Paul gives limits.  This was revolutionary, but may not seem so today, it may seem like Paul is just giving good advice, which he is doing, but he is doing a lot more than that.</p>
<p>This is why I consider it essential to know the 1st century context when interpreting these verses, so many so-called teachers do not do that and miss a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Charis</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3865</link>
		<dc:creator>Charis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3865</guid>
		<description>Insightful, Don!

I wonder if the older women are given that responsibility because they understand- by long experience and trial and error- the nature of living in a woman's skin with a sinful man?  "WIVES, submit to your husbands" Eph 5 and "Likewise you WIVES..." 1 Pet 3 are clearly addressed right to WIVES, whom God, Peter, and Paul apparently trust to discern the meaning apart from male "intermediaries" (and or "scholarly credentials", I might add).

I have seen teaching of passages which Paul, Peter, God address exclusively to wives and women "twisted" in a certain way which on the surface- seem "beneficial" to men (in the way it stifles conflict and accountability) but really is not at all in the man's best interest.  Some Christian "marriage books" sound to me more like manuals to enable ongoing husbandly immaturity, sin, and selfishness.

Interestingly, I have had several older female Christian mentors and never once one who teaches me "to love husband and children" in warm fuzzy weak non-confrontational way I think some  perceive a "Titus 2 woman". </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insightful, Don!</p>
<p>I wonder if the older women are given that responsibility because they understand- by long experience and trial and error- the nature of living in a woman&#8217;s skin with a sinful man?  &#8220;WIVES, submit to your husbands&#8221; Eph 5 and &#8220;Likewise you WIVES&#8230;&#8221; 1 Pet 3 are clearly addressed right to WIVES, whom God, Peter, and Paul apparently trust to discern the meaning apart from male &#8220;intermediaries&#8221; (and or &#8220;scholarly credentials&#8221;, I might add).</p>
<p>I have seen teaching of passages which Paul, Peter, God address exclusively to wives and women &#8220;twisted&#8221; in a certain way which on the surface- seem &#8220;beneficial&#8221; to men (in the way it stifles conflict and accountability) but really is not at all in the man&#8217;s best interest.  Some Christian &#8220;marriage books&#8221; sound to me more like manuals to enable ongoing husbandly immaturity, sin, and selfishness.</p>
<p>Interestingly, I have had several older female Christian mentors and never once one who teaches me &#8220;to love husband and children&#8221; in warm fuzzy weak non-confrontational way I think some  perceive a &#8220;Titus 2 woman&#8221;. </p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3864</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3864</guid>
		<description>Here is an insight into Titus that Kenneth Bailey had which I like.

Titus is charged to teach older men, older women (these might be the elders) and younger men, but the older women are charged to teach the younger women, per Titus 2:1-6.  Now WHY might Paul instruct Titus to not directly teach younger women?  I think the answer is because it would be cross-gender to a person of similar age.  

A teacher is in authority while teaching (to maintain order).  So to avoid any appearance of impropriety in the 1st century, Titus should avoid directly teaching young women, as he is a young man.  It helps to know that adultery was just assumed when a man was along with 1 or more women, as the Jewish sages taught that they would seduce him.  This last from Instone-Brewer, not Bailey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is an insight into Titus that Kenneth Bailey had which I like.</p>
<p>Titus is charged to teach older men, older women (these might be the elders) and younger men, but the older women are charged to teach the younger women, per Titus 2:1-6.  Now WHY might Paul instruct Titus to not directly teach younger women?  I think the answer is because it would be cross-gender to a person of similar age.  </p>
<p>A teacher is in authority while teaching (to maintain order).  So to avoid any appearance of impropriety in the 1st century, Titus should avoid directly teaching young women, as he is a young man.  It helps to know that adultery was just assumed when a man was along with 1 or more women, as the Jewish sages taught that they would seduce him.  This last from Instone-Brewer, not Bailey.</p>
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		<title>By: Charis</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3863</link>
		<dc:creator>Charis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3863</guid>
		<description>That is an interesting observation, Don

The famous passage whence cometh the concept of the "Titus 2 Woman" also has a relative of that same word twice within the span of a few verses.

For women to have "sophron......." is apparently EXTREMELY important to Paul and to God!

I got to digging into the Greek words and roots in Titus 2:4-5:
 I noticed  the repetition of a similar word: sophron (rendered “sober”) and sophronizo (rendered “discreet”)
Titus 2:4-5 That they may teach the young women to be sober &#60;4994&#62;, to love their husbands, to love their children,
 [To be] discreet&#60;4998&#62;, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
So I looked at all the definitions under those entries (&lt;a href="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4994&#38;Version=kjv" rel="nofollow"&gt;&#60;4994&#62;&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4998&#38;Version=kjv" rel="nofollow"&gt;&#60;4998&#62;&lt;/a&gt;)  and I looked at their root words which are listed “sozo” and “phren”: &#60;4982&#62; &#60;5424&#62;
Here’s a list of the meanings (you can look at the links if you want to see for yourself):
&lt;blockquote&gt;
to restore one to his senses,
 to moderate, control, curb, disciple
 to hold one to his duty
 to admonish, to exhort earnestly
 of a sound mind, sane, in one’s senses
 curbing one’s desires and impulses, self-controlled, temperate
and from the roots:
 to keep safe and sound, make well, heal, restore, save—&#62; the mind, the faculty of perceiving and judging
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I see in there God’s intention that the mature women teach the neos (newer, younger) to the end that their mind will be whole, sound, healed, that they will live consecrated, set apart for God, being able to perceive what is good and constructive and what is evil, that they have the charge to GUARD their home/marriage and keep themselves safe, protected, and chaste within their home and with their husbands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is an interesting observation, Don</p>
<p>The famous passage whence cometh the concept of the &#8220;Titus 2 Woman&#8221; also has a relative of that same word twice within the span of a few verses.</p>
<p>For women to have &#8220;sophron&#8230;&#8230;.&#8221; is apparently EXTREMELY important to Paul and to God!</p>
<p>I got to digging into the Greek words and roots in Titus 2:4-5:<br />
 I noticed  the repetition of a similar word: sophron (rendered “sober”) and sophronizo (rendered “discreet”)<br />
Titus 2:4-5 That they may teach the young women to be sober &lt;4994&gt;, to love their husbands, to love their children,<br />
 [To be] discreet&lt;4998&gt;, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.<br />
So I looked at all the definitions under those entries (<a href="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4994&amp;Version=kjv" rel="nofollow">&lt;4994&gt;</a> <a href="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4998&amp;Version=kjv" rel="nofollow">&lt;4998&gt;</a>)  and I looked at their root words which are listed “sozo” and “phren”: &lt;4982&gt; &lt;5424&gt;<br />
Here’s a list of the meanings (you can look at the links if you want to see for yourself):</p>
<blockquote><p>
to restore one to his senses,<br />
 to moderate, control, curb, disciple<br />
 to hold one to his duty<br />
 to admonish, to exhort earnestly<br />
 of a sound mind, sane, in one’s senses<br />
 curbing one’s desires and impulses, self-controlled, temperate<br />
and from the roots:<br />
 to keep safe and sound, make well, heal, restore, save—&gt; the mind, the faculty of perceiving and judging
</p></blockquote>
<p>I see in there God’s intention that the mature women teach the neos (newer, younger) to the end that their mind will be whole, sound, healed, that they will live consecrated, set apart for God, being able to perceive what is good and constructive and what is evil, that they have the charge to GUARD their home/marriage and keep themselves safe, protected, and chaste within their home and with their husbands.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3862</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3862</guid>
		<description>I am rereading Bruce Fleming's book "Familiar "Leadership" Heresies Uncovered" (P.S. I think this is a very strange title but has great insights.).

On p. 268 he says Paul repeats a word from 1 Tim 2:9 in 1 Tim 2:15 (I deduced the word is sophrosune (sobriety).  He claims this is an anacoluthon connecting the 2:15b with 2:9.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am rereading Bruce Fleming&#8217;s book &#8220;Familiar &#8220;Leadership&#8221; Heresies Uncovered&#8221; (P.S. I think this is a very strange title but has great insights.).</p>
<p>On p. 268 he says Paul repeats a word from 1 Tim 2:9 in 1 Tim 2:15 (I deduced the word is sophrosune (sobriety).  He claims this is an anacoluthon connecting the 2:15b with 2:9.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Schatz</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3661</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Schatz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 05:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3661</guid>
		<description>Michael,
The name of the 2 DVD set is 
"The Trinity - Eternity Past to Eternity Future 
Explaining Truth &#38; Exposing Error"

Thanks again for your support.  This is a very important project and we sure do need prayer support.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br />
The name of the 2 DVD set is<br />
&#8220;The Trinity - Eternity Past to Eternity Future<br />
Explaining Truth &amp; Exposing Error&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks again for your support.  This is a very important project and we sure do need prayer support.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Terran</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3618</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Terran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3618</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Thank you Michael for standing with me!  I have gone the next step in Matthew 18 and gone to Matt’s Pastor.  If he is a really good Pastor he will do something about the abuses.  My Pastor has already tried to get Matt to see things rationally but Matt wouldn’t listen.  Perhaps Matt will listen to his own Pastor.

There is so much more that could be said but I have to stick to the most important parts regarding the authority of the Son in the&lt;/em&gt; &lt;em&gt;Trinity.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;Thanks Cheryl for getting back to me, Our lord will help you in the editing! Maybe once you wrap time one up, work on a second. This DVD should be more then enough though, Getting and Finding the right Real Jesus of Scripture! Once this is out I can't wait to buy alot of copies! I'm sending one to Harvest church,  IL. Remeber I was going back and forth with he on this issue. This DVD will be such a blessing of Great Light! Also maybe offer a two pack later on WIM &#38; Trinity DVDs ! Just giving you ideas! What is the Title of you New DVD going to be? Also if you need any money don't be affraid to ask us/me. Set up a donate system through paypal when you have time, so we can give. I feel the Lord leading me in this way. Bye for now
&lt;/strong&gt;
               Much Love In Christ To You and your Family, Michael</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Thank you Michael for standing with me!  I have gone the next step in Matthew 18 and gone to Matt’s Pastor.  If he is a really good Pastor he will do something about the abuses.  My Pastor has already tried to get Matt to see things rationally but Matt wouldn’t listen.  Perhaps Matt will listen to his own Pastor.</p>
<p>There is so much more that could be said but I have to stick to the most important parts regarding the authority of the Son in the</em> <em>Trinity.</em></p>
<p><strong>Thanks Cheryl for getting back to me, Our lord will help you in the editing! Maybe once you wrap time one up, work on a second. This DVD should be more then enough though, Getting and Finding the right Real Jesus of Scripture! Once this is out I can&#8217;t wait to buy alot of copies! I&#8217;m sending one to Harvest church,  IL. Remeber I was going back and forth with he on this issue. This DVD will be such a blessing of Great Light! Also maybe offer a two pack later on WIM &amp; Trinity DVDs ! Just giving you ideas! What is the Title of you New DVD going to be? Also if you need any money don&#8217;t be affraid to ask us/me. Set up a donate system through paypal when you have time, so we can give. I feel the Lord leading me in this way. Bye for now<br />
</strong><br />
               Much Love In Christ To You and your Family, Michael</p>
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		<title>By: Don Johnson</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/06/09/noodling-with-the-greek-grammar/#comment-3586</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/?p=237#comment-3586</guid>
		<description>One of the ways to have pride is to think it is not possible to be wrong.  This can lead to arrogance.

My take is the leaders at CARM deal with cultists a lot and it is very easy to see how they are wrong in a big way.  But dealing with believers is different.

I want to always be willing to learn more and change.  I have changed what I believed about something many times in my walk, I am certainly not the same as when I first believed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the ways to have pride is to think it is not possible to be wrong.  This can lead to arrogance.</p>
<p>My take is the leaders at CARM deal with cultists a lot and it is very easy to see how they are wrong in a big way.  But dealing with believers is different.</p>
<p>I want to always be willing to learn more and change.  I have changed what I believed about something many times in my walk, I am certainly not the same as when I first believed.</p>
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