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	<title>Comments on: Jesus unequal in prayer?</title>
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	<description>This blog is for dialogue on the issue of women in ministry and the freedom for women to teach the bible in a public setting.  It is also for questions and answers on our DVD entitled "Women in Ministry: Silenced or Set Free?"  This 4 DVD set answers the hard passages of scripture that seem to restrict women's ministry.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2112</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2112</guid>
		<description>Under Much Grace,

You have nailed it on the head.  Dr. Ware has made it very clear that we are to go to the Father in Jesus' authority.  This could be like going to the head of the company bringing a letter authorizing us to be there.  Yet in reality, Jesus' authority comes with his presence and his person.  We come to God through the very person of Jesus.  When we give glory to Jesus, we are giving glory to the Father.  There is no competition here and the Father insists that we honor the Son even as we honor the Father.  When we pray to Jesus we are also glorifying the Father.  God is united and the Father is not insisting that we only pray to one member of the Trinity as if it was only one member of the Trinity whose job it is to answer.  Jesus also told us that he answers prayers and I would rather believe Jesus.

It seems to me what they are trying to do is segregate the Trinity in a similar fashion as they segregate the body of Christ.  They make spiritual "roles" that belong only to one gender and exclude the other gender.  They also devise spiritual "roles" that belong to the Father alone and which also exclude the Son's participation.  This is just not biblical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under Much Grace,</p>
<p>You have nailed it on the head.  Dr. Ware has made it very clear that we are to go to the Father in Jesus&#8217; authority.  This could be like going to the head of the company bringing a letter authorizing us to be there.  Yet in reality, Jesus&#8217; authority comes with his presence and his person.  We come to God through the very person of Jesus.  When we give glory to Jesus, we are giving glory to the Father.  There is no competition here and the Father insists that we honor the Son even as we honor the Father.  When we pray to Jesus we are also glorifying the Father.  God is united and the Father is not insisting that we only pray to one member of the Trinity as if it was only one member of the Trinity whose job it is to answer.  Jesus also told us that he answers prayers and I would rather believe Jesus.</p>
<p>It seems to me what they are trying to do is segregate the Trinity in a similar fashion as they segregate the body of Christ.  They make spiritual &#8220;roles&#8221; that belong only to one gender and exclude the other gender.  They also devise spiritual &#8220;roles&#8221; that belong to the Father alone and which also exclude the Son&#8217;s participation.  This is just not biblical.</p>
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		<title>By: Under Much Grace</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2111</link>
		<dc:creator>Under Much Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 04:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2111</guid>
		<description>In re-reading this thread, I just thought of the phrase that I've heard so many times in my life:  "Give your heart to Jesus."

It just occured to me that I would hope this is still what a Christian is supposed to do, but consider how one does this, even the first time at the altar in one's heart, when one first surrenders to the Lord.  You can't pray to the Person to whom you surrender?   Give your heart to Jesus, but do so by submitting your request with the Father.  In a talk that I'm preparing on patriarchy, based on some other writings, I state that the patriarch uses Jesus as a catalyst to work back to Adam before the fall.  In this model that Ware presents, I can see also that Jesus becomes a mere catalyst to give man the "authority" to go to the Father.  This is man centered worship of God and not Christ centered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In re-reading this thread, I just thought of the phrase that I&#8217;ve heard so many times in my life:  &#8220;Give your heart to Jesus.&#8221;</p>
<p>It just occured to me that I would hope this is still what a Christian is supposed to do, but consider how one does this, even the first time at the altar in one&#8217;s heart, when one first surrenders to the Lord.  You can&#8217;t pray to the Person to whom you surrender?   Give your heart to Jesus, but do so by submitting your request with the Father.  In a talk that I&#8217;m preparing on patriarchy, based on some other writings, I state that the patriarch uses Jesus as a catalyst to work back to Adam before the fall.  In this model that Ware presents, I can see also that Jesus becomes a mere catalyst to give man the &#8220;authority&#8221; to go to the Father.  This is man centered worship of God and not Christ centered.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2074</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 02:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2074</guid>
		<description>EXCELLENT points, Greg!  Right on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EXCELLENT points, Greg!  Right on.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Anderson</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2073</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 19:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2073</guid>
		<description>Not to be talked to huh?  Then who am I sposeta' talk to?  Is it all by formula and someone's spin on what constitutes orthodoxy?  All I know for certain is that Jesus bled and died for me and that when he did, the curtain separating me from himself was torn from top to bottom.  With all due respect to Dr. Ware and his hard earned credentials, he didn't bleed and die for me, but the one who did bleed and die for me will in no wise cast me out when I call upon him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to be talked to huh?  Then who am I sposeta&#8217; talk to?  Is it all by formula and someone&#8217;s spin on what constitutes orthodoxy?  All I know for certain is that Jesus bled and died for me and that when he did, the curtain separating me from himself was torn from top to bottom.  With all due respect to Dr. Ware and his hard earned credentials, he didn&#8217;t bleed and die for me, but the one who did bleed and die for me will in no wise cast me out when I call upon him.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2072</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 06:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2072</guid>
		<description>#5 Jason,

I concur that there is complete unity in the Trinity.  This is why I find Bruce Ware's position so difficult to fathom why he insists that Jesus is not to be talked to in prayer.  Our relationship is with God himself in Trinity and to take away our relationship with Jesus because while he was here on earth living as a man, Jesus taught the disciples to address the Father, in no way excludes our Lord Jesus as an object of worship through our prayers.  I believe that our DVD project on the Trinity will be an eye-opener to many who have been sincerely confused on this very important topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#5 Jason,</p>
<p>I concur that there is complete unity in the Trinity.  This is why I find Bruce Ware&#8217;s position so difficult to fathom why he insists that Jesus is not to be talked to in prayer.  Our relationship is with God himself in Trinity and to take away our relationship with Jesus because while he was here on earth living as a man, Jesus taught the disciples to address the Father, in no way excludes our Lord Jesus as an object of worship through our prayers.  I believe that our DVD project on the Trinity will be an eye-opener to many who have been sincerely confused on this very important topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2060</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2060</guid>
		<description>Don,
I agree.  In fact I have used the same saying with former Jehovah's Witnesses who are struggling to understand who Jesus is.  I tell them that when their God is big enough, they won't have any problems in understanding who Jesus is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don,<br />
I agree.  In fact I have used the same saying with former Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses who are struggling to understand who Jesus is.  I tell them that when their God is big enough, they won&#8217;t have any problems in understanding who Jesus is.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Johnson</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2053</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2007 03:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2053</guid>
		<description>IMO, God is so far beyond our understanding, that God uses metaphors and analogies so we might have any understanding at all.  God is like quantum theory, if you think you understand all of it, you don't.  I think J.B. Phillips wrote a book, "Your God is too Small" which I found very useful in not putting God in a box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO, God is so far beyond our understanding, that God uses metaphors and analogies so we might have any understanding at all.  God is like quantum theory, if you think you understand all of it, you don&#8217;t.  I think J.B. Phillips wrote a book, &#8220;Your God is too Small&#8221; which I found very useful in not putting God in a box.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2052</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 04:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2052</guid>
		<description>Teknomom, Greg, Kerryn, Jason and Under Much Grace, thank you for the encouragement and the thoughts.  This is a very important subject and I will be doing much more work on this subject in the New Year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teknomom, Greg, Kerryn, Jason and Under Much Grace, thank you for the encouragement and the thoughts.  This is a very important subject and I will be doing much more work on this subject in the New Year.</p>
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		<title>By: Under Much Grace</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2051</link>
		<dc:creator>Under Much Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 06:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2051</guid>
		<description>SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS, SISTER!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS, SISTER!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Oliver Evans</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2050</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Oliver Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 01:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/12/21/jesus-unequal-in-prayer/#comment-2050</guid>
		<description>Hello Brothers and Sisters,

I find Dr. Ware's position problematic. The apostle John states in his First Epistle:

"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Le t that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father And this promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." (2: 23-5)

As believers we are taken into the Triune fellowship. We pray in the Spirit to the Father in the name of Christ. God the Father and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one. They are distinct in their hypostases but always one in essence. The Father is Creator, the Son is Creator, the Spirit is Creator. How the triune God creates (Father speaks the Word by which all things made are made in the power of the Spirit). 

It is rather unfortunate that modern evangelical theologians have adopted the term 'roles' to describe the mysterious nature of God. The ancient theologians used the term 'rank', yet they affirmed the oneness, and authority, and majesty.  the Persons of the Trinity do not have a one attribute ascribe to Him that the others do not possess. The Father begets, the Son is eternally begotten, and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son (western church). The Holy Trinity is worthy are our worship our obedience, and our prayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Brothers and Sisters,</p>
<p>I find Dr. Ware&#8217;s position problematic. The apostle John states in his First Epistle:</p>
<p>&#8220;Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Le t that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father And this promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.&#8221; (2: 23-5)</p>
<p>As believers we are taken into the Triune fellowship. We pray in the Spirit to the Father in the name of Christ. God the Father and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one. They are distinct in their hypostases but always one in essence. The Father is Creator, the Son is Creator, the Spirit is Creator. How the triune God creates (Father speaks the Word by which all things made are made in the power of the Spirit). </p>
<p>It is rather unfortunate that modern evangelical theologians have adopted the term &#8216;roles&#8217; to describe the mysterious nature of God. The ancient theologians used the term &#8216;rank&#8217;, yet they affirmed the oneness, and authority, and majesty.  the Persons of the Trinity do not have a one attribute ascribe to Him that the others do not possess. The Father begets, the Son is eternally begotten, and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son (western church). The Holy Trinity is worthy are our worship our obedience, and our prayers.</p>
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