Comments on: Gift vs Office and women in ministry

By: Greg Anderson

Greg Anderson — Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:49:21 +0000

Cheryl, Good illustration in post nr. 9 above. Another simple example would be the case in which one of the doors in the Sunday School wing of the building is squeaking terribly. Should we hire a contractor at God knows how much per/hr. to fix it, or does somebody simply take it upon him or herself to tap down the offending hinge pin and give it a couple-o’-squirts of dura-lube? Your point is well taken that one’s gifting in the church is not the province of any ecclesiastical (man-made) body. And as you’ve made it abundantly clear, these gifts when bestowed by God himself are not to be hindered by the whim and fancy of men.

By: Don Johnson

Don Johnson — Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:13:38 +0000

It is a somewhat tricky question to ask how many apostles are found in the NT. There are quite a few.

Also, I find it best to think of it as a ministry, it is the ministry of being sent out (from a congregation, like a missionary). Many people do this today, yes they are special, but an apostle is not so special that they are only found in the NT.

By: Michael Terran

Michael Terran — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:57:17 +0000

Thanks for the answer! It seems that God allowed this to take place and God doesn’t disputy it, ok Matthias is the 12th!

Pauls example is simple… weather he was part of the 12 or not, it’s not so much about office but about answering your higher calling and using your gift/ gifts from God to the full.

The 12 I think was for Israel….12 Tribes etc and the foundation along with the prophets etc.

As for “Junia”, Yes I believe she was a Female Apostle like Paul! I have done alot of research from both sides of the issue and I believe Junia was a woman gifted by God!

By: Don Johnson

Don Johnson — Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:53:04 +0000

In my understanding Matthias is the 12th apostle of the 12. Paul and others in the NT called apostles are not one of the 12. Junia was an apostle, but there are a few ways to alter the translation so that it does not seem that way, if you do not believe a woman can be an apostle.

By: Michael Terran

Michael Terran — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 06:11:53 +0000

the 12 apostles are the foundation etc etc. So is it Matthias that is part of that foundation? It can’t be judas right? What if Paul is really the 12th! please help.

By: Don Johnson

Don Johnson — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:35:50 +0000

Thank you for the kind words, I do want to be a blessing. And you have blessed me also with your insights. I am always seeking a better understanding.

By: Cheryl

Cheryl — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 05:23:45 +0000

Lastly Don said:

9. If someone is given a ministry gift, do not try to force fit it into another ministry gift. If you are given the gift of being an evagelist, do not try to be a pastor, for example, as it can just lead to frustration. Accept whatever gift you have been given and use it to serve the body of Christ.

Don, you have been a blessing to me. Your words are written with great wisdom. This is a very wise word and something I will take to heart.

By: Cheryl

Cheryl — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 05:22:17 +0000

Don also said:

7. God can give another gift to anyone whenever he wishes.

8. I cannot find anyone called Apostle John or Prophet Agabus in the NT. What I can find is John, an apostle, or Agabus, a prophet. The point is that I look with skepticism on titles and look at what someone does.

This is the New Testament way. It seems that we have gone a long way from the way that the church was set up.

By: Cheryl

Cheryl — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 05:18:51 +0000

Don also said:

6. When someone is recognized with the above ministry (not office), the existing leadership (possibly non-local as in missionary) can lay hands on them and appoint them as an elder/overseer of the congregation.

This is exactly what I believe. While God gifts, we the people can recognize the gift and the maturity of another believer and the laying on of hands is given for us to recognize the leadership abilities of a mature Christian. Some pastors are elders and some are not, but the key thing in my article was pointing out that a pastor does not need a man to ordain him/her although they can be ordained as an elder.

By: Cheryl

Cheryl — Mon, 15 Oct 2007 05:16:06 +0000

Don,

You also said:

4. There are many others in the NT who are called apostles besides the 12 and Paul, none of these are said to be in an office. I do not see any offices in the new covenant besides Jesus as High Priest and the 12, which needed to be 12 to map to the 12 tribes of Israel.

I agree. There certainly was a special foundational type of apostle that was of the 12. But there were also other apostles in scripture. I believe each apostle and each pastor is gifted by God to be an apostle or a pastor. I really liked your analogy that an office is there whether a person is in that position or not. So we could say that the 12 apostles were apostles by gift but also apostles by a special office called “the foundation” of the church. Jesus, the 12 apostles and the prophets are called the foundation and the church is built on this foundation, with Jesus being the corner stone.