Debate with Matt Slick scheduled
Sep 10th, 2007 by Cheryl
Hey all,
Regarding my previous post about debating with Matt Slick about women in ministry, I spoke to the producer of his radio program (Faith and Reason) tonight and she has set the date of Wednesday, September 19th for me to call in for the debate.
You can listen to the program live on myfamilyradio.com Go to http://www.myfamilyradio.com/player.html and pick the link at the very bottom for “790 KSPD play outside of browser” The time is 6 - 7 pm Mountain time so that would work out to 7 - 8 pm Central, 8 - 9 pm Eastern and 5 - 6 pm Pacific.
The next day the audio should be up at Matt’s podcast site here
Matt is pretty hard on women and it is time to present the other side in a logical, respectful and winsome way. I trust that the Lord Jesus will help me with all of that. Remember David and Goliath? Guess which one I am?? I will give you a hint…I hope to get out alive!
September 10th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Awesome! I noticed he pulled the entire recent thread on their forums about Gen. 3:15-16. Too much sense was coming through I suspect.
BTW how does one listen to the debate. I’m in Hawaii. Don’t get their radio station, don’t think. Will you record it and have it for play back later?
I guess that is one way to boost the listening audience of his station.
September 10th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
I’ll be praying for you Cheryl.
September 10th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Justa Berean,
I have added this information to my post: You can listen to the program live on myfamilyradio.com Go to http://www.myfamilyradio.com/player.html and pick the link at the very bottom for “790 KSPD play outside of browser” The time is 6 - 7 pm Mountain time so that would work out to 7 - 8 pm Central, 8 - 9 pm Eastern and 5 - 6 pm Pacific.
Dusman,
Thank you so much for your prayers!
Guys, pass this around to anyone that you know who is interested in the women’s issue and pray that women will be set free from following tradition when God has called them to ministry for the body of Christ.
September 11th, 2007 at 4:46 am
Hey “David”– aim between the eyes.
I’m going to email you some things I’ve learned from experience in informal debates with Calvinists (and evolutionists, cultists, etc.). I’m sure they’re reading this blog!
September 11th, 2007 at 5:08 am
I am busy Sep 19-21, but am rooting for you. One method I try to use is to just get people to study both sides to see who is right ala Proverbs 18:17. As I see it, there are a few things that need to be established.
1. The fact that any translation is a human effort and is subject to human error.
2. The fact that any translation involves interpretation.
3. The fact that we are not the original recipients of the NT letters and that we are, in effect, looking over their shoulders and trying our best to figure out what it meant to them.
That is, it is absolutely essential to establish that one needs to go to the original language in the original 1st century culture. I am sure you know all this. Unfortunately, most people do not know Greek, as in “It’s all Greek to me.”
If you cannot even get this established, then the debate will be settled in your opponent’s mind by those few verses from 1 Tim from his favorite translation.
I would also be very wary if he controls the microphone, this is an unfair advantage.
I will be praying for you.
September 11th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Teknomom,
Yes, you guessed it - I am “little” David. Sure go ahead and email me your words of wisdom.
Don,
I will put a link to the debate on the blog later so you can hear it after the fact. Also you points were well-taken and they will be things I will ponder on.
Thanks for your prayers! I know I will need them.
September 11th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Good thoughts Don! I too get very nervous when people try to “carpet bomb” you with what they assure you is “the plain truth of scripture”. It’s a common bullying tactic and I’ve seen it time and time again. What we have is infallible truth in God’s word as revealed in the original autographs and languages. What we don’t have is inerrant and unbiased exposition from translators and preachers. And Cheryl, YOU GO GIRL !!! you have all of us here in this blog community pullin’ and prayin’ for ya!
September 11th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Greg,
Thanks friend! Knowing that I had so many people behind me is a very wonderful feeling!
September 11th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Cheryl,
Anyone who debates a guy named “Slick” is my hero!
You’re in my prayers.
September 11th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Under Much Grace,
Thank you! Hey did you know that Matt has a copy of my DVD for a year now and the only comment he had on the material was that it was “slick”. Unfortunately he meant that in a pejorative way. Yet he still hasn’t given me any objections to the material in the DVDs. I guess that I will get more out of him on his radio show, Lord willing.
September 11th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Is Matt Slick with Worthy Boards or CARM?
Worthy Boards are getting ready to blackball you big time. In my understanding that means they are running scared. They sense that your aim is good and you’ve hit a vein. They are afraid of losing something important. And unearned priority of power and control is a loss to those who’ve had it when they shouldn’t. It is something that can only safely be held when the aim is totally unselfish. And this isn’t happening.
September 11th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Matt is the founder of CARM.
Yes, I do know about Worthy Boards and how they have removed the thread that I had been posting on. Apparently they think that I might be able to influence others and they can’t allow that. It is a secondary issue of doctrine, yet they have made it a primary issue - an issue of orthodoxy. It is so sad when Christians black list other Christians because they don’t agree on the secondary issues. Jesus talked about severe persecution that would come from those who claimed to have the true faith.
While there is no one that is looking to kill egalitarians, there is a tremendous persecution that seeks to shut up anyone who speaks out for women. The one comfort I have is that persecution is to be expected and we are to endure it knowing that God will make it right in the end.
2Ti 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
September 12th, 2007 at 5:52 am
Today it’s egalitarians… tomorrow it will be those who aren’t “purpose driven”… the day after that it will be Bible believers. And it all comes from “the church”. History tells us that persecution is never worse than when it comes from wolves in sheep’s clothing, from “our own household”.
“Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.” (Rev. 18:4)
This “heathen” internet may be the last place for true believers to fellowship and speak out, so let all of us who have a web presence shout the truth while it is still “day”.
September 12th, 2007 at 7:11 am
The point about believers having no infallible interpreters is a good one. In fact, history has shown that sometimes interpretations were made in order to reinforce the existing power structures, such as with the idea of the divine right of kings and the Southern Baptists, etc. splitting off to form their own group based on human slavery being OK. The point is we should resist the temptation to interpret the Bible to give a group we belong to an advantage over another group.
From the 2nd century until the 20th, it was just “KNOWN” that women are inferior to men, so it was mostly just accepted that men would be the leaders most of the time. THe male hierearchicalists cannot use this argument today, so they have to come up with entirely new ones, but all their arguments are recent inventions. So they try to make their answers sophisticated. What if someone taught today that blacks and whites have different but complementary roles to play? The answer is it would be seen as the racist rhetoric it would be. P.S. This WAS part of the argument in the 19th century for black slavery.
So the question becomes MUST one interpret some puzzling “women” verses to say that women cannot be leaders and the simple answer is that it is NOT true that one must do this. This is similar to whether one MUST interpret some puzzling verses on slavery to say that black slavery is OK. We know the answer to the latter.
P.S. When I was praying for you last night, I got a word that a faithful servant (you) were to be willing to “take an arrow” and not respond in kind and that this would allow the Holy Spirit to work on others, when they see your meekness when attacked.
September 12th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Don,
Thank you for your words of wisdom. I take that “word” to heart and I am willing to “take an arrow” for sure. I am humbled and very grateful that you are willing to pray for me. I really do need that undergirding!
September 12th, 2007 at 9:26 am
I have just been informed about a new bulletin board where egalitarians would be free to speak about women’s issues and not be shot down. Paula has started this board at http://theology.fether.net/forums/index.php
It appears that I will be barred from commenting on the complementarian board called Worthy Boards. It is so sad to see Christians stopping others from hearing the other side on secondary issues. At least one person has been asked to stop linking to this blog so it gives me cause for thought. I must be doing something right if I am considered that much of a threat!
September 12th, 2007 at 10:05 am
As the male hierarchicalists realize they are losing, they will get more strident; this is the way worldly power works. It will become a test for orthodoxy in those churches where the majority believe it, withness the SBC. The slave owners predicted dire consequences FOR those not agreeing with their “plain meaning of Scripture”.
On 1 Tim 3:2 “one-woman man” both Bruce Fleming (in Familiar Leadership Heresies Exposed) and Ann Nyland (in The Source New Testament) translate this as “faithful spouse”. Lucien Deiss in the edition integrale (fullest set of notes) of the French Bible TOV says that this appelation in Greek is found on both male and female tombstones in Ephesus. This is one way to counter the claim that they never saw a woman who could be the husband of one wife. One needs to read the terms in 1st century context.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Typo in above, for TOV, read TOB, the note is on p.646 note a.
Here is a link to Amazon France for this book
http://www.amazon.fr/Bible-TOB-int%C3%A9grale-Skivertex-bordeaux/dp/2204075671/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/403-1905912-0334001?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189616895&sr=8-2
Unfortunately, it is only available in French.
Nyland’s The Source text with notes for 1 Tim is available for free as softcopy from http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/resources/Source/source.htm
Bruce Fleming book on 1 Tim is available as a free download from http://thinkagainbooks.com/8book-series.html
September 12th, 2007 at 10:21 am
Excellent, Don! Thanks!
September 12th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Cheryl,
Congratulations! You’ve got yet another badge of honor to wear: getting thrown off the Worthy Boards!
I think the debate is heating up by the day. You’ve posted articles about the escallating aggressive teachings of the CBMW (as they seem to pull back now even from the “white washed feminist” complementarian postition). They’ve already attempted to turn “egalitarian” into a filthy word. In October, I understand that there are two new films scheduled for release from the patrirarchal camp which should fire up the controversy. One is The Return of the Daughters and the other is The Monstrous Regiment of Women–all to set the rest of the Christian world straight. (I certainly don’t see how it can be considered very evangelical.) And SharperIron.com took down the majority of their articles concerning Doug Phillips and the Family Integrated Church movement after Don Veinot’s article in the MCOI newsletter went online. Phillips (an attorney) has requested all the names and addresses of the MCOI Boards and Don’s senior pastor. Many view this debate as a war, and they posture quite violently in their “taking” of the opposition.
I think that it’s more than just the Worth Boards running scared. Have all North American Christians lost the ability to agreeably disagree? Or was that always just a nice idea that no one ever realized? Praise God that He watches over His Word to perform it! And God bless all the Davids with their slingshots.