Comments on: Are women’s gifts to be used outside the church? http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/ This blog is for dialogue on the issue of women in ministry and the freedom for women to teach the bible in a public setting. It is also for questions and answers on our DVD entitled "Women in Ministry: Silenced or Set Free?" This 4 DVD set answers the hard passages of scripture that seem to restrict women's ministry. Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:15:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Cheryl http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-925 Cheryl Mon, 27 Aug 2007 23:42:32 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-925 Greg, I always love that "second witness"! Thanks for providing the scriptural second witness. Greg,

I always love that “second witness”! Thanks for providing the scriptural second witness.

]]> By: Greg Anderson http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-921 Greg Anderson Sun, 26 Aug 2007 00:50:24 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-921 Cheryl, Notice also the 2nd witness God provides to Rev. 2:20. We read in Acts 15:28-29 that so long as we abstain from food offered to idols, blood, strangled livestock, and illicit sex, we are doing well in our Christian walks. But that's not all. We are assured in verse 28 that the Holy Spirit lays no other burden (Greek word is epanagkes, meaning "essentials") on us other than these. What exhilarating emancipation and liberty! No wonder the eminent scholar E.W. Bullinger could in all good conscience write in his introductory notes on 1 Tim.: "To Timothy were given the earliest instructions for orderly arrangement in the church, these instructions being of the simplest nature, and as Dean Alford well observes with regard to the Pastoral Epistles as a whole, the directions given "are altogether of an ethical, not of an hierarchical kind". These directions afford no warrant whatever for the widespread organizations of the "churches" as carried on today." (From: The Companion Bible p-1799). Regardless of what Bullinger and Alford say, scripture interprets scripture and as you've pointed out, even the locally surrounding context (data) does not support the prohibition of Godly women teaching Orthodox Biblical Doctrine to men. Cheryl, Notice also the 2nd witness God provides to Rev. 2:20. We read in Acts 15:28-29 that so long as we abstain from food offered to idols, blood, strangled livestock, and illicit sex, we are doing well in our Christian walks. But that’s not all. We are assured in verse 28 that the Holy Spirit lays no other burden (Greek word is epanagkes, meaning “essentials”) on us other than these. What exhilarating emancipation and liberty! No wonder the eminent scholar E.W. Bullinger could in all good conscience write in his introductory notes on 1 Tim.: “To Timothy were given the earliest instructions for orderly arrangement in the church, these instructions being of the simplest nature, and as Dean Alford well observes with regard to the Pastoral Epistles as a whole, the directions given “are altogether of an ethical, not of an hierarchical kind”. These directions afford no warrant whatever for the widespread organizations of the “churches” as carried on today.” (From: The Companion Bible p-1799).
Regardless of what Bullinger and Alford say, scripture interprets scripture and as you’ve pointed out, even the locally surrounding context (data) does not support the prohibition of Godly women teaching Orthodox Biblical Doctrine to men.

]]> By: Cheryl http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-915 Cheryl Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:39:35 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-915 The Bible never teaches there is a "Jezebel spirit" and I have found that those who teach this not only teach that Christians can be demon possessed but also teach that anyone who doesn't agree with them has a "Jezebel spirit". It just isn't scriptural. The Bible never teaches there is a “Jezebel spirit” and I have found that those who teach this not only teach that Christians can be demon possessed but also teach that anyone who doesn’t agree with them has a “Jezebel spirit”. It just isn’t scriptural.

]]> By: Don Johnson http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-914 Don Johnson Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:59:25 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-914 As there is a Jezebel who is bad in the OT and also one in the NT, I have heard of some that teach on a "Jezebel spirit" that has been used to say that a woman should not do something that a man can do. I completely reject that implication, of course, and am highly dubious of even the concept of a "Jezebel spirit" or similar. As there is a Jezebel who is bad in the OT and also one in the NT, I have heard of some that teach on a “Jezebel spirit” that has been used to say that a woman should not do something that a man can do. I completely reject that implication, of course, and am highly dubious of even the concept of a “Jezebel spirit” or similar.

]]> By: Cheryl http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-913 Cheryl Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:47:33 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-913 Don, Yes you are certainly right! The bad teachers in the OT have been ignored by complementarians too. If God had a "law" from the creation of mankind that forbid women from teaching men or leading men, then we shouldn't ever have seen women been used to teach or lead. The bad examples of women doing what was forbidden could have been used as an example by God to prove that women are not to be in any position of leading/teaching but there is nothing in the OT either that reprimands Israel for letting a woman lead or letting a woman teach. Thanks for pointing that out, Don! Don,

Yes you are certainly right! The bad teachers in the OT have been ignored by complementarians too. If God had a “law” from the creation of mankind that forbid women from teaching men or leading men, then we shouldn’t ever have seen women been used to teach or lead. The bad examples of women doing what was forbidden could have been used as an example by God to prove that women are not to be in any position of leading/teaching but there is nothing in the OT either that reprimands Israel for letting a woman lead or letting a woman teach. Thanks for pointing that out, Don!

]]> By: Cheryl http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-912 Cheryl Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:44:04 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-912 Hi Keith, Welcome! Glad you stopped by and I hope you enjoy the community here. Your Pastor is absolutely right in that we must understand 1 Timothy 2:11-15 within the context of the prohibition of false teaching and false deceived teachers in 1 Timothy 1. A point form of my take on the passage is at http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/12/02/what-does-1-timothy-211-15-mean/ The question that I have always asked those who believe that 1 Timothy 2:12 is a universal prohibition is to show me point by point from the context of chapters 1 and 2 how Paul could possibly be stopping the teaching of true biblical doctrine. You see if we see 1 Timothy 2:12 as a universal prohibition then it must be stopping godly Christian women from teaching the truth of God's word to men. But this simply cannot be supported from the context set forward in chapter 1. Paul did not say that Timothy was left behind in Ephesus to stop the false teachers from teaching AND the women from teaching. He simply and clearly was stopping the teaching of false doctrine and the deceived teachers were to be stopped from spreading this false doctrine. If Paul had also wanted godly women in general to be stopped from teaching, then he make the prohibition of 1 Timothy 2:12 to be completely foreign to the context because the stopping of "a woman" is surrounded by the stopping of false doctrine, the stopping of deceived teachers who are ignorantly teaching false doctrine (Paul also reveals that he too had been deceived and acted in ignorance) and the deception of Eve. Where is it possible to input godly women into this prohibition? It simply isn't possible. I would love to hear from your Pastor and I think he would be encouraged by my DVD series called "Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?" In this series the inspired words and the inspired grammar of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 are shown to prove that it is impossible for this prohibition to be stopping all women from ministering the truth of God's word. Hi Keith,

Welcome! Glad you stopped by and I hope you enjoy the community here.

Your Pastor is absolutely right in that we must understand 1 Timothy 2:11-15 within the context of the prohibition of false teaching and false deceived teachers in 1 Timothy 1. A point form of my take on the passage is at http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/12/02/what-does-1-timothy-211-15-mean/

The question that I have always asked those who believe that 1 Timothy 2:12 is a universal prohibition is to show me point by point from the context of chapters 1 and 2 how Paul could possibly be stopping the teaching of true biblical doctrine. You see if we see 1 Timothy 2:12 as a universal prohibition then it must be stopping godly Christian women from teaching the truth of God’s word to men. But this simply cannot be supported from the context set forward in chapter 1. Paul did not say that Timothy was left behind in Ephesus to stop the false teachers from teaching AND the women from teaching. He simply and clearly was stopping the teaching of false doctrine and the deceived teachers were to be stopped from spreading this false doctrine. If Paul had also wanted godly women in general to be stopped from teaching, then he make the prohibition of 1 Timothy 2:12 to be completely foreign to the context because the stopping of “a woman” is surrounded by the stopping of false doctrine, the stopping of deceived teachers who are ignorantly teaching false doctrine (Paul also reveals that he too had been deceived and acted in ignorance) and the deception of Eve. Where is it possible to input godly women into this prohibition? It simply isn’t possible.

I would love to hear from your Pastor and I think he would be encouraged by my DVD series called “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” In this series the inspired words and the inspired grammar of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 are shown to prove that it is impossible for this prohibition to be stopping all women from ministering the truth of God’s word.

]]> By: Don Johnson http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-911 Don Johnson Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:43:54 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-911 Keith, See the 1 Tim sections (on the column to the right). Cheryl's insight is that this is referring to a specific woman. Keith,

See the 1 Tim sections (on the column to the right). Cheryl’s insight is that this is referring to a specific woman.

]]> By: Don Johnson http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-910 Don Johnson Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:13:25 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-910 There are also examples of bad women leaders in the OT and the same rationale applies, it is not that they were women, it is that they were bad leaders. One is to use the Scriptural witness of both the good and bad examples for our education. There are also examples of bad women leaders in the OT and the same rationale applies, it is not that they were women, it is that they were bad leaders.

One is to use the Scriptural witness of both the good and bad examples for our education.

]]> By: Keith http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-909 Keith Fri, 24 Aug 2007 08:46:00 +0000 http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/08/23/are-womens-gifts-to-be-used-outside-the-church/#comment-909 Hi Cheryl, Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I'm new to your blog space and have just scanned through a couple of your previous postings, particularly on 1 Cor 11. Was wondering whether you have previously covered 1 Tim 2:11-15? My pastor recently did a series on 1 Tim. His view is that the context of 1 Tim must be understood from the backdrop of wrong teachings being propagated by individuals in the local church, for e.g. 1 Tim 1:3-5. Apparently historial sources indicated some teachings elevated women to be superior to men (from the cult of Diana?), and this had an effect on the local congregation in Ephesus. Accordingly Paul could be addressing this specific local problem in 1 Tim 2:11-15 rather than giving a universal command. To be honest, I'm not at all certain that this could be an accurate read of the text. What is your view on it? God bless Keith Hi Cheryl,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I’m new to your blog space and have just scanned through a couple of your previous postings, particularly on 1 Cor 11. Was wondering whether you have previously covered 1 Tim 2:11-15?

My pastor recently did a series on 1 Tim. His view is that the context of 1 Tim must be understood from the backdrop of wrong teachings being propagated by individuals in the local church, for e.g. 1 Tim 1:3-5. Apparently historial sources indicated some teachings elevated women to be superior to men (from the cult of Diana?), and this had an effect on the local congregation in Ephesus.

Accordingly Paul could be addressing this specific local problem in 1 Tim 2:11-15 rather than giving a universal command. To be honest, I’m not at all certain that this could be an accurate read of the text. What is your view on it?

God bless

Keith

]]>