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	<title>Comments on: What women really want</title>
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	<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/</link>
	<description>This blog is for dialogue on the issue of women in ministry and the freedom for women to teach the bible in a public setting.  It is also for questions and answers on our DVD entitled "Women in Ministry: Silenced or Set Free?"  This 4 DVD set answers the hard passages of scripture that seem to restrict women's ministry.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-842</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-842</guid>
		<description>TNJaguar:

Thanks for your comments.  I heartily agree!  I have yet to have anyone point out for me where any majority of women are trying to "rule" men.  This interpretation just makes God out to be a false prophet so I wonder how so many have been fed this interpretation have swallowed it hook line and sinker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TNJaguar:</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.  I heartily agree!  I have yet to have anyone point out for me where any majority of women are trying to &#8220;rule&#8221; men.  This interpretation just makes God out to be a false prophet so I wonder how so many have been fed this interpretation have swallowed it hook line and sinker.</p>
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		<title>By: TNJaguar</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-835</link>
		<dc:creator>TNJaguar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2007 00:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-835</guid>
		<description>(First time poster, glad to find another believer in Biblical equality)

I've never understood how the idea that women will "desire to rule" men has any staying power. I'm a survivor of eight years of Christian schools and a graduate-escapee of one of the strictest Christian universities in the nation, and I've never seen or heard of a woman trying to rule a man. I've known of plenty of women who have sacrificed everything they were to win a man's love... and fail. I've known of women who have stayed in abusive relationships and tried to be perfect in order to win a man's love. I've known women who have married unbelievers because they wanted a man who would love them. I've heard women who have chosen to idolize their husbands because their churches have taught them to do so. But rule? The closest I can think of for a woman trying to rule a man is one who tries to save a man from his own mistakes/sins/whatever, and even then that's a desire for love and acceptance and not an open attempt to rule anyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(First time poster, glad to find another believer in Biblical equality)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never understood how the idea that women will &#8220;desire to rule&#8221; men has any staying power. I&#8217;m a survivor of eight years of Christian schools and a graduate-escapee of one of the strictest Christian universities in the nation, and I&#8217;ve never seen or heard of a woman trying to rule a man. I&#8217;ve known of plenty of women who have sacrificed everything they were to win a man&#8217;s love&#8230; and fail. I&#8217;ve known of women who have stayed in abusive relationships and tried to be perfect in order to win a man&#8217;s love. I&#8217;ve known women who have married unbelievers because they wanted a man who would love them. I&#8217;ve heard women who have chosen to idolize their husbands because their churches have taught them to do so. But rule? The closest I can think of for a woman trying to rule a man is one who tries to save a man from his own mistakes/sins/whatever, and even then that&#8217;s a desire for love and acceptance and not an open attempt to rule anyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Paula</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Paula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 01:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Thanks Cheryl. It's always good to be prepared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Cheryl. It&#8217;s always good to be prepared.</p>
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		<title>By: cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-32</guid>
		<description>Paula:  Thanks for the questions!

â€œThe manâ€ who has become like us keys in on the one whom God said would be tempted to eat from the tree of life.  God is specifically talking about the man here, but because the woman also ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, obviously she too would have been like God in knowing good and evil.  However, she wasnâ€™t the problem one.  Adam was the one who sinned with knowledge and by his own choice without his being deceived.  He was the one in rebellion and was charged with bringing sin into the world.  Although we can assume that Adam and Eve were both knowing good and evil because Eve also ate the fruit, we cannot assume from scripture that God also kicked out Eve from the garden.  God tells us only that Adam was kicked out of the garden.  Unfortunately the TNIV takes the literal Hebrew and puts their interpretation into the text.  Instead of saying â€œthe manâ€ as most translations render this verse, they assume God means both Adam and Eve because we do know that both of them left the garden.  The assumption is that God kicked them both out of the garden but the text doesnâ€™t say that.  A much better answer is the prophecy that God gives to Eve that she would desire her husband and obviously her desiring him would cause her to want to be with him.  It is also understandable that his sinful rule over her would not have allowed her to stay in the garden.  He wasnâ€™t leaving alone!

So to summarize, the Hebrew for Genesis 3:22 is not plural but is accurately translated as â€œthe manâ€ and Godâ€™s mentioning Adam becoming like him in knowing good and evil cannot be used to say that the woman did not also know good and evil.  The emphasis on this verse is the rebellious man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paula:  Thanks for the questions!</p>
<p>â€œThe manâ€ who has become like us keys in on the one whom God said would be tempted to eat from the tree of life.  God is specifically talking about the man here, but because the woman also ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, obviously she too would have been like God in knowing good and evil.  However, she wasnâ€™t the problem one.  Adam was the one who sinned with knowledge and by his own choice without his being deceived.  He was the one in rebellion and was charged with bringing sin into the world.  Although we can assume that Adam and Eve were both knowing good and evil because Eve also ate the fruit, we cannot assume from scripture that God also kicked out Eve from the garden.  God tells us only that Adam was kicked out of the garden.  Unfortunately the TNIV takes the literal Hebrew and puts their interpretation into the text.  Instead of saying â€œthe manâ€ as most translations render this verse, they assume God means both Adam and Eve because we do know that both of them left the garden.  The assumption is that God kicked them both out of the garden but the text doesnâ€™t say that.  A much better answer is the prophecy that God gives to Eve that she would desire her husband and obviously her desiring him would cause her to want to be with him.  It is also understandable that his sinful rule over her would not have allowed her to stay in the garden.  He wasnâ€™t leaving alone!</p>
<p>So to summarize, the Hebrew for Genesis 3:22 is not plural but is accurately translated as â€œthe manâ€ and Godâ€™s mentioning Adam becoming like him in knowing good and evil cannot be used to say that the woman did not also know good and evil.  The emphasis on this verse is the rebellious man.</p>
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		<title>By: Paula</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Paula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-31</guid>
		<description>Got a question, which I'm sure comps would bring up:

The same phrase "the man" is also used to describe who "has become like us, knowing good and evil". Can it be argued that if only Adam was driven out, then only Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil? I noticed also that the TNIV says God drove THEM out, but I don't know the Hebrew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got a question, which I&#8217;m sure comps would bring up:</p>
<p>The same phrase &#8220;the man&#8221; is also used to describe who &#8220;has become like us, knowing good and evil&#8221;. Can it be argued that if only Adam was driven out, then only Adam had become like God, knowing good and evil? I noticed also that the TNIV says God drove THEM out, but I don&#8217;t know the Hebrew.</p>
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		<title>By: cheryl</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Ryan: The thought of the woman ruling the husband is not that she did so necessarily before the fall, but that her innate desire after the fall will be one of wanting to rule the man. This is how many commentaries define the word â€œdesireâ€. They see her desire as being a bad thing, not as something good. My article was to dispute that. In fact, my article was in defense of Godâ€™s prophecy. God is the one who said that the woman would desire the man. Women understand what this means. In fact, I believe that it is Godâ€™s grace that allows this. As one who laid in the delivery room in excruciating pain as I gave birth to each child, at that moment in time the thought of ever allowing him near me again so that this pain would happen to me again was repugnant. Yet after the birth of my child, those thoughts were gone. The same thing happens when women are dominated and controlled and at times treated as if they are children and not mature adults, yet the women still keep coming back to the men that they love. There is something in a woman that keeps her love for him no matter what. Any other meaning for â€œdesireâ€ in this passage would fail to prove out as a fact in this world.

Molly: Your comments were well said. Women understand our ability to take abuse and mistreatment and keep coming back for what we hope will eventually be emotional love shown in the way we need to receive it. It is so rewarding for me to see so many men refusing to continue the tradition of male domination and who are now coming alongside women and treating them with respect and who have a willingness to hear what women have to say and to teach them. In the past if men would have been more willing to listen to women, they would not have so easily attributed to God a prophecy about womenâ€™s desire to rule men. That is a false prophecy that God did not originate. Instead God prophesied about womenâ€™s future and their ability to love the man despite being treated as a creature to be ruled over. Oh that God would allow the time to come quickly when every member of the body of Christ will be treated with dignity and respect and honored for their gifts and placement in the body no matter what their gender happens to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan: The thought of the woman ruling the husband is not that she did so necessarily before the fall, but that her innate desire after the fall will be one of wanting to rule the man. This is how many commentaries define the word â€œdesireâ€. They see her desire as being a bad thing, not as something good. My article was to dispute that. In fact, my article was in defense of Godâ€™s prophecy. God is the one who said that the woman would desire the man. Women understand what this means. In fact, I believe that it is Godâ€™s grace that allows this. As one who laid in the delivery room in excruciating pain as I gave birth to each child, at that moment in time the thought of ever allowing him near me again so that this pain would happen to me again was repugnant. Yet after the birth of my child, those thoughts were gone. The same thing happens when women are dominated and controlled and at times treated as if they are children and not mature adults, yet the women still keep coming back to the men that they love. There is something in a woman that keeps her love for him no matter what. Any other meaning for â€œdesireâ€ in this passage would fail to prove out as a fact in this world.</p>
<p>Molly: Your comments were well said. Women understand our ability to take abuse and mistreatment and keep coming back for what we hope will eventually be emotional love shown in the way we need to receive it. It is so rewarding for me to see so many men refusing to continue the tradition of male domination and who are now coming alongside women and treating them with respect and who have a willingness to hear what women have to say and to teach them. In the past if men would have been more willing to listen to women, they would not have so easily attributed to God a prophecy about womenâ€™s desire to rule men. That is a false prophecy that God did not originate. Instead God prophesied about womenâ€™s future and their ability to love the man despite being treated as a creature to be ruled over. Oh that God would allow the time to come quickly when every member of the body of Christ will be treated with dignity and respect and honored for their gifts and placement in the body no matter what their gender happens to be.</p>
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		<title>By: molly</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>molly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Preach it, girl.  

This is SO well supported through a quick look through history---it is RARE for women to revolt, even against the most horrific forms of domination (female circumcision, burqa wearing, etc).  It is, however, NORMATIVE for women to continue to desire a relationship with men, even when it comes with a burqa or mutilation.  

(This is not, of course, to say that *all* men secretly want all women in burqas, or to come across as man-hating in any way, becuase the male gender certainly got his share of the sad consequences of the Fall, and *both* genders are certainly in need of a New Creation)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preach it, girl.  </p>
<p>This is SO well supported through a quick look through history&#8212;it is RARE for women to revolt, even against the most horrific forms of domination (female circumcision, burqa wearing, etc).  It is, however, NORMATIVE for women to continue to desire a relationship with men, even when it comes with a burqa or mutilation.  </p>
<p>(This is not, of course, to say that *all* men secretly want all women in burqas, or to come across as man-hating in any way, becuase the male gender certainly got his share of the sad consequences of the Fall, and *both* genders are certainly in need of a New Creation)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-24</guid>
		<description>Yes, the NET Bible Translation notes unfortunately favour the interpretation of ruling the husband, but the commentaries of Welsey, Gill and James, Fausset and Brown (JFB) don't seem to infer that she was looking to have authority over her husband (after all, she did offer him the fruit -- if she had bad intentions, wouldn't she have kept it to herself?).  Wesley says, "She is here put into a state of subjection: the whole sex, which by creation was equal with man, is for sin made inferior."  JFB write, "...her condition would henceforth be that of humble subjection."  Gill said, "...it should be liable to be controlled by his will, which must determine it, and to which she must be subject..."

The thing that really bothers me about every interpretation that I have seen thus far is that they all interpret these things as God cursing the man and woman.  However, this is not the case.  God curses the serpent in Gen 3:14 and the ground because of Adam's rebellion in Gen 3:17.  Otherwise, He merely says that He will increase Eve's pain in childbirth and prophecies about Adam's toil, Eve's desire for her husband and Adam's rule over her.  Given that Eve had not yet had any children and din't know the pain of childbirth, its hard to imagine that this is what God is speaking of.  Perhaps what is meant is in reference to the heart and emotional anguish she would experience with the sin of her children -- her first son was a murderer.  After all, it is the mother who bears the children from her very own womb, breast feeds them and mothers them and so has a closer connection.

Your article is very well written, immediately engaging and a powerful argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the NET Bible Translation notes unfortunately favour the interpretation of ruling the husband, but the commentaries of Welsey, Gill and James, Fausset and Brown (JFB) don&#8217;t seem to infer that she was looking to have authority over her husband (after all, she did offer him the fruit &#8212; if she had bad intentions, wouldn&#8217;t she have kept it to herself?).  Wesley says, &#8220;She is here put into a state of subjection: the whole sex, which by creation was equal with man, is for sin made inferior.&#8221;  JFB write, &#8220;&#8230;her condition would henceforth be that of humble subjection.&#8221;  Gill said, &#8220;&#8230;it should be liable to be controlled by his will, which must determine it, and to which she must be subject&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>The thing that really bothers me about every interpretation that I have seen thus far is that they all interpret these things as God cursing the man and woman.  However, this is not the case.  God curses the serpent in Gen 3:14 and the ground because of Adam&#8217;s rebellion in Gen 3:17.  Otherwise, He merely says that He will increase Eve&#8217;s pain in childbirth and prophecies about Adam&#8217;s toil, Eve&#8217;s desire for her husband and Adam&#8217;s rule over her.  Given that Eve had not yet had any children and din&#8217;t know the pain of childbirth, its hard to imagine that this is what God is speaking of.  Perhaps what is meant is in reference to the heart and emotional anguish she would experience with the sin of her children &#8212; her first son was a murderer.  After all, it is the mother who bears the children from her very own womb, breast feeds them and mothers them and so has a closer connection.</p>
<p>Your article is very well written, immediately engaging and a powerful argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick S</title>
		<link>http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2006/11/15/what-women-really-want/#comment-22</guid>
		<description>Very well stated and supported.  This information should be in a book; maybe an ebook too, so that others can learn more about what the bible says about God's intentions for men and women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well stated and supported.  This information should be in a book; maybe an ebook too, so that others can learn more about what the bible says about God&#8217;s intentions for men and women.</p>
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