Thank you for your very kind words! You are right - I make a big deal about the importance of sound doctrine. There is a cost to pay for this, but to me it is worth it. My DVD set has been given to several liberal “scholars” who are very much in favor of women in ministry. They should love the DVDs because they present the egalitarian message in a very visual way and the message is not combative but gentle. However these “scholars” do not appear to like the way I handled the issue. I have made a strong stand that the bible is completely inspired and we cannot ignore scripture just because we don’t like what it says. This apparently is offensive to some.

I worked very hard to understand the hard passages of scripture but I did not waver from keeping my understanding in tune with the inspired context as well as the inspired words and the inspired grammar. My understanding has come because I read the scriptures to truly understand what they are saying so that they can speak without contradiction. I do not come to the scriptures with a preconceived conclusion that I want to force on the texts themselves. Along the way I rejected many egalitarian arguments because they did not fit the context or they ignored some of the inspired words that didn’t fit their theory. It was my sincere belief (and it still is) that one can know they have the correct interpretation when there is nothing in the passage or in the rest of scripture that contradicts your interpretation. Yet even with this strong view of scripture I am still being told that I am inserting political correctness into the text. This is a shut-down statement and when I ask them to show me how I am doing this, there is no answer.

But the message is getting through and I give God the glory! Recently I received an email from a Pastor who said that he had never before heard an interpretation that didn’t have contradictions until he viewed the DVDs. He bought another 6 DVD sets as gifts for 6 of his fellow Pastors because he appreciated them so much. He also is giving credit to the Holy Spirit for bringing these passages to light and I am so happy to hear that. That is exactly where the praise should go and is the fruit that I am looking for.

I also know what you mean about the seeker churches that go overboard to please the sinner. When one caters to one who is unregenerate and who wants to have his/her ears tickled, the meat of the word will never be preached. The gospel will also not be preached in a way that will make it fruitful. My son was asked to leave a church where the gospel was not being preached because it was considered offensive. For over a year he worked with the Pastor to try to get him to preach the gospel and not just invite people to pray a prayer to have a “party in their heart”. The mature ones are asked to leave the church if they do not support a watered-down gospel. It is very sad.

Cheryl, This is so important and one reason I even started to look at your teaching. You make clear in all of your teaching that sound doctrine is all important. When I first found your site, I kept waiting for the ‘liberal’ or felt needs doctrine to make its appearance. After quite a while, it has not. I purchased your DVD set, studied scripture in context along with it and it is right on. The introduction on that series is excellent.

I came out of a seeker church. Ironically, they won’t preach the full Gospel, but they were very strict complementarians! Go figure.

Thanks for giving Tarun that information. I am sure he will find it very helpful!

As I said most of this can be discussed in the marriage post, so I won’t answer in this post. A couple of quick comments regarding what you said and we shall both leave this for the next set:

You said: (1)Sarah “needs” Abraham’s consent to Banish the slave woman which is why she asks him to do so and doesnt do so herself regardless of his consent.

Sarah doesn’t “need” Abraham’s consent at all. Hagar was Sarah’s maid so Sarah can do what she wants with her own maid. However while Hagar was Sarah’s maid, she was also Abraham’s concubine and because Sarah had herself “given” Hagar to Abraham, she now belonged to him.

Secondly you said:

(5)That’s how the system is set up to work. obedience to the Husband is a faith proposition and the “Just shall walk by faith”

Scripture doesn’t say obedience is what a wife is to offer. She is to submit as he is to sacrifice. Yet a wife can obey her husband if she asks her to do something just as a husband can obey his wife as she asks him to do something. This is biblical and to disregard Abraham’s obedience is to disregard Abraham putting his wife and God first in his life over his concubine and his son.

See you on the other marriage posts when they come up. I hope you don’t leave and not come back because it will be a lively discussion, I am sure!

I wanted to post a reply to some of what’s been said here and I found myself at their website looking for particulars.

Its a great resource for anyone interested in further study and in developing a strong position based on what the bible actually says.

Sure, I’ll be happy to copy into the marriage post when it comes up but I’d just like to reply to your last post and I’ll leave it at that - Thanks.

(c)Gen 21:12 ESV But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.

The word translated “do” in “Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you” is the Hebrew word shama and it means to obey. God told Abraham to obey Sarah.

(T) That’s absolutely right , now look at the following in terms of Sarah’s attitude in approaching this matter I’ll pull in one verse before this one.

21:10 So she said to Abraham, “Banish that slave woman and her son, for the son of that slave woman will not be an heir along with my son Isaac!”

21:11 Sarah’s demand displeased Abraham greatly because Ishmael was his son.19 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not be upset about the boy or your slave wife. Do all that Sarah is telling you because through Isaac your descendants will be counted.

Look at the pattern set up here.

(1)Sarah “needs” Abraham’s consent to Banish the slave woman which is why she asks him to do so and doesnt do so herself regardless of his consent.
(2)Sarah’s demand displeased Abraham.
(3)Lets stop here for a minute and ponder what would have happenned had God not intervened. Hagar would not have been asked to leave because Abraham’s consent was not going to be given considering Sarah’s demand displeased him and that would have been that. Hagar would not have gone anywhere and Sarah would have to live with her in obedience to Abraham’s lack of consent and she would have to do it with a willing heart.

(4)This is exactly my point, if the wife is obedient to the Husband as we know Sarah was (refer 1 Peter) she will receive the reward for her faith in following the Word to obey her husband and in this case God himself intervened and expressly instructs Abraham to do what Sarah told him to do because Abraham was clearly in the wrong and Sarah was right (in accordance with the Lords will)
(5)That’s how the system is set up to work. obedience to the Husband is a faith proposition and the “Just shall walk by faith”
(6)In other words the Wife is subject to the Husband as to the Lord and the Husband is subject to the Lord “not to the wife” but when the wife is obedient in faith to the husband then she receives the reward for her obedience to the husband from the Lord who intervenes and brings justice as always and especially when the Husband is misusing his God given position as was clearly the case here . .

I’m over and out. This was fun and I hope it was helpful at some point. U take care.

Two equal partners listening to and preferring one another - that’s marriage.

God commanded Abraham to obey Sarah and if God’s command to obey is something that makes one the follower and the one obeyed makes them the leader, then we see that other side of the coin in Genesis.

Gen 21:12 ESV But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.

The word translated “do” in “Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you” is the Hebrew word shama and it means to obey. God told Abraham to obey Sarah.

There is much more to be said, but I don’t think this is the post to do it on since most people don’t read the comments on an older post. I have a post or two left to do on the issue of spiritual gifts, maybe a post on the debate with Matt Slick that I will be doing next week on the issue of women teaching the bible to men and then I want to move on to the issue of marriage and how that affects the ability for women to minister. If you can be patient, I think it would be better to answer these questions when everyone gets to read them and can participate in the discussion. That would be most helpful to all.

I do not know how quick I will get to the issue of marriage but it will be the next big issue on this blog so if you could copy your comments here and post them on that blog topic, I am certain it will be a lively discussion.

Blessings!
Cheryl

(C)My friend, you cannot take two unrelated passages and make an application between the two. Ephesians is not talking about a law or governing authority. That would be completely reading into the text.

(T)Here are the 2 scriptures in brief again :
(a)Ephesians talks about “Wives submitting to Husbands as to the Lord” and
(b)Romans goes “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.”

The application I am making is that as total obedience to a Governing authority is not Idolatory as accepted by you and me. In the same way complete obedience of a wife to her husband “as” to the Lord is not Idolatory and this is only “one” of the aspects that would constitute a wife’s overall attitude to the husband “without” being idolatorous.

Now going by earlier posts I am quite sure you will say that nowhere in Ephesians does it say that a wife has to “totally obey” her Husband which is exactly what it means and this can be proven here.

1 Peter 3 1-6 “In the same way, wives, be subject to your own husbands. Then, even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 3:2 when they see your pure and reverent conduct.3:3 Let your beauty not be external – the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes – 3:4 but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God’s sight. 3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so”

Lets look at this exaltation to the wife point by point.

Point 1. Be Subject to your own husband
Point 2. Even if Husbands are disobedient to the Word they will be won over without a word (from the wife)by the way the wife lives.
How much clearer can Scripture be, Even if the man is ungodly the Godly wife is expected to win him over by “the way she lives” and “without a word”
I would like to emphasise the “without a word” bit and please note that this is for a man disobedient to the word of God.
How much more should she remain “without a word” to a Godly husband who is following the leading of the Lord the best he knows how.
- Now what I am saying here is that the “without a word” is an attitude of the heart. It is not mute obedience with rebellion in the heart but a total surrender of her will to the husband in heart (check Vs 4) This obviously follows through in action even if she thinks differently.(Please dont go into the idolatory bit here, we’ve already dealt with the difference)
She can do this confidently, believing God to work out the situation for her and her husbands best ineterest knowing that she is in line with God’s word. It’s actually a question of the Wife’s faith in God and trusting him with childlike trust to reward her for her faith as opposed to her relying on her own wisdom and strategies which may be superior to her Husband’s in the natural and is exactly why she is put in that position so she may be proven of God in obeying the Husband given to her by God even if she knows differently and possibly better in the natural and thereby exhibiting trust in God and not her own strategies.

****Whew****

Point 3. Again (in Vs 5)being subject to your Husbands (note how it is mentioned twice in this very same passage)

Point 4. Lets discuss Sarah calling Abraham lord - Of course its tradition, she is not replacing Abraham for God what she is doing is exalting him as high as she knows to do.
Jesus said, “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34).
Now would’nt you say that all Sarah would have been giving him is Lip service when she calls him lord and doesn’t obey him when he states his particular view on a subject and expects her to follow him.
The fact is that the verse 3:6 actually goes “like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.

So what Peter is trying to say here is that
(a)Sarah obeyed
(b)the obedience was done with a heart attitude which was so reverent that out of the mouth came “lord”

Here again let me very clearly say that the word lord is not the point , a wife can call her husband anything she wants and that they are comfortable with but when push comes to shove God and the husband know that the wife will surrender her will to his. If she doesnt, its disobedience and we just established that obedience is a must.

Now I ask you -
(a)If there are 2 priests in the home and the wife priest is expected to obey the husband priest “absolutely” wouldn’nt the husband priest be the leader ? I’d say that’s kind of common sense

(b)and if the Husband priest is the “leader” of the wife priest and hence the household.
He becomes by God given right the “Priest of the home”

Trust that clarifies.

Later. . . .

You said:

When Romans 13:1 says “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities” Would’nt it be right to say that the “Governing authority” plays the lead role. I’d like you to make the difference between obeying the law of the land that has been set up by the leader of the land and saying that to follow the law of the land in totality is idolatory. It is an authority structure set up by God for our benefit.

Actually I wouldn’t say anything of the sort. Obeying the law over us that has been set up by God is not idolatry. Idolatry is when we set something up as God and give devotion to a thing or person as God (or god).

You asked:

In the situation immediately above who would you say is the leader - me as a Godfearing citizen or the Head of State who is creating the rules I follow ?

The law of the land is our governing authority plain and simple. We cannot just make up our own rules. We are to obey unless the human law overrides God’s law and then we are required to disobey human law makers.

You said:

Now apply the same principle to Ephesians 5:22- 24

My friend, you cannot take two unrelated passages and make an application between the two. Ephesians is not talking about a law or governing authority. That would be completely reading into the text.

You said:

Can you still say that this scripture “5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body.” does not give the Husband the mantle of leadership and the final word(which the Husband is accountable to God for)

This scripture says nothing about the husband being the leader nor is God telling the husband to take authority over his wife. Neither does it say that the husband is accountable to God for the final word. Each of us are accountable in exactly the same way. If that is not true, then please show me from scripture where it is not true.

Lastly you quoted:

1 Peter 3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so.****

My dear brother, this is not telling us that Sarah called Abraham her God or that she treated him as such. The term “lord” has several meanings, but the one which would be applicable here can be found in Strong’s concordance. It says it means:

by implication Mr. (as a respectful title)

So Sarah was calling Abraham what in that day was a respectful title. I often call my husband “sir” and I do it out of respect for him. That may be odd in this day and age, but I do like honoring him in every way that I can. Wives are told to give their husbands respect and Sarah did just that. Today “lord” is not commonly said as a way of showing respect. But Sarah absolutely and in no way committed idolatry by treating Abraham as her God.

The problem that you have to come face to face with is that scripture never even once tells the husband to take any kind of authority over the wife. Scripture also does not tell the husband that he can command the wife nor does it give him the right to act as a governing authority commanding her to obey his law. Instead scripture commands him to love her and to give up his own desires for her. When he puts her first, he is showing love. When she puts him first, she is showing respect.

The ESV shows this so clearly when it says in Romans 12:19:

Rom 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.

Honor and respect is to be given to both and putting each other first is God’s way.

So If this is the scripture which the Lord has provided to show that the Husband is called to lead
i.e
5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body. 5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

then a reiteration of similar obedience to God’s authority structure that he set up in His soverign Wisdom (Spend a minute on the scripture below)

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment

When Romans 13:1 says “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities” Would’nt it be right to say that the “Governing authority” plays the lead role. I’d like you to make the difference between obeying the law of the land that has been set up by the leader of the land and saying that to follow the law of the land in totality is idolatory. It is an authority structure set up by God for our benefit.

Now I may have my own opinion about the law of the land I live in and may actually feel that it is downright dumb but I am still expected to follow it unless it contradicts the Word of God.

In the situation immediately above who would you say is the leader - me as a Godfearing citizen or the Head of State who is creating the rules I follow ? Sure I can vote, Sure I can petition, Sure I can try and influence the leader every leagal way I can but the final decision lies very clearly with the ruler doesnt it. That establishes leadership and I am sure you can draw the line between that and Idolatory which can be defined as a situation that Shadrach and gang had to face.

Now apply the same principle to Ephesians 5:22- 24

Can you still say that this scripture “5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body.” does not give the Husband the mantle of leadership and the final word(which the Husband is accountable to God for)
Sure the Wife can petition, influence and call in support but at the end of the day if she is unable to persuade him to change his mind “she is to follow his direction unless it contradicts the Word” Of course he is going to be wrong many a time and is she called to go her own way then ?

No,Not if you take 1 Peter 3 1-6 into consideration ***In the same way, wives, be subject to your own husbands. Then, even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 3:2 when they see your pure and reverent conduct.3:3 Let your beauty not be external – the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes – 3:4 but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God’s sight. 3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so.****

Ok Cheryl, I’m sure you will have something to say about this . I cant wait : )
The rain has stopped and I got to ride off..