Husband as the Priest of the home?
Nov 11th, 2006 by Cheryl
With the push towards defining biblical manhood and womanhood, often men are pressured into a leadership role where they feel overwhelmed by their responsibilities. Probably none more stressful than the title given to them as “Priest of the home”. But is this position biblical?
Nowhere in scripture is there to be a designated “priest of the hom”. In Judges chapters 17 & 18 Micah, an idol worshipper, consecrated his son as a priest in his home (Judges 17:5) and he also persuaded a Levite to be his personal priest (Judges 17:7-13). This “priest of the home” was involved with idol worship (Judges 18:4, 14-20) and he was not set up as a “priest in the home” by God.
A priest is one who represents the people to God and offers sacrifices to God. Our High Priest is Jesus himself and he is both a mediator between mankind and God and the one who offered the ultimate blood sacrifice for our sins. Since we have Jesus as our High Priest, is there any need for a single priest in the home representing the family to God? Let’s see what scripture says. 1 Peter 2:5, 9 says that we are all to be priests to God in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices.
1 Peter 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
By removing the wife from a joint priesthood with her husband and making only the husband responsible for seeking God’s will in all family decisions, those who espouse the unbiblical position of the man as the sole priest in the home, relegate the wife’s participation to a secondary and subordinate position in the home. This dismantles the woman’s equality as joint-heir with her husband and threatens to limit her spiritual growth.
The ultimate goal of every believer is to be conformed to the image of Christ and to grow into a mature “son” of God. All believers are called “sons” of God because all believers are fellow heirs with Christ. Because we are fellow heirs with Christ, all believers are expected to grow to maturity by learning how to make spiritual decisions that conform to biblical principles. Paul said that in the next life we (men and women in the body of Christ) will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3) so it is so important that we all learn how to make mature spiritual decisions in this life.
By believing in the faulty doctrine that men are the sole priest in the home, many women have been taught that their husband is spiritually responsible for them. They think that if they love God and follow their husband’s spiritual lead that they will have no responsibility in the decisions made by their husbands. However in two of the best known examples of a husband not making wise spiritual decisions, Adam and Ananias (Acts 5:1), the wife was judged for her actions equally with the husband. There is no example of a husband called to account for his wife’s actions or a wife freed from spiritual responsibility because her husband made the original decision as in the case of Ananias. God did not ask Adam what Eve had done even though Adam was there with Eve during her temptation (Genesis 3:6) and Sapphira was held equally responsible for her acceptance of her husband’s plan to deceive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:9).
As joint-heirs of Christ and partners in the holy, royal priesthood, husband and wife have equal responsibility to seek God’s will for the family and equal responsibility to work together to preform God’s will in the home.
Cheryl, I just found your comment on my blog (my spammer had nabbed it–more than one link and it nabs comments automatically). Anwyays, great to see your blog over here!
You are so right on with this post. One of the HUGEST things we have to grapple with is the fact that setting up the Husband As Priest means we are setting up a mediatorship. Men don’t need one, but women do. Patriarchists/complimentarians are essentially saying that women need a mediator between them and God–first, daughters under their fathers and then wives under their husbands.
But this idea that a mediator is required is completely unsupported when we look at the Gospel…therefore is something we really need to stop and consider before we teach it.
Welcome Molly!
I agree with your summary and I also think that we need to do more to expose the ungodly pressures that have been placed on men who have been taught that they are to be a priest over their wives. I remember as a child hearing the teaching that the husband will answer to God for whatever his wife does or doesn’t do. No wonder so many men think they need to dominate their wives. After all if they are solely responsible for their wive’s actions, shouldn’t the men rule over their wives and force them to obey? It’s sad that this attitude is still prevalent today.
I have been mulling over the idea of doing another video series, this time on the subject of marriage and headship/submission. It would deal with different perversions of God’s arrangement for marriage such as the false teaching about the husband being the priest over the wife. I haven’t seen anything in a video format that deals with exposing these false doctrines. If the Lord continues to lead me in this direction, this is something I would like to work on.
Boy, that sounds interesting! I say, two thumbs up, for whatever that’s worth–lol…
Hey, Cheryl, one thing I would appreciate you guys maybe doing a little more research on is the emerging church movement. I noticed in the pamphlet that came with the dvd’s that you guys are presently “anti” it, yet have the same arguments that most folks do who completely misunderstand the movement (such as Slice of Laeodicea, etc).
An excellent “primer” (an accurate primer, too)… Scot McKnight over at JesusCreed.org just wrote an excellent pdf about it… Let me see if I can find a link. It’s worth printing off and reading carefully, because it explains many of the misunderstandings that some have about what emerging actually is.
http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=1624
(link to the pdf provided in that post).
Warmly,
Molly
Yes, it is worth putting the effort into more research. There is actually a difference between the Emergent Church (with a capital ‘E’) and the emerging church movement. Much in the emerging movement is just fine and geared towards younger people who have a different mindset. The Emergent Church is quite another thing with a lukewarm approach to sin and righteousness and some of the major Christian doctrines. Bob DeWaay has a debate with one of the leaders of the Emergent church that I would like to purchase. I think it is important to hear it for myself as it is my understanding that the Emergent church leader wouldn’t commit to any doctrine as truth. It is important that we hold tight to sound doctrine and test everything by the Word of God.
Thanks for your suggestion, I will look into it further.
Yes, there is that unfortunate element, but there are many others who are not like that. It’s one of those things where the movement is so diverse that it’s difficult to say you love it or you hate it–lol–(maybe a both/and is in order).
But, anyways, I recall the pamphlet I’d recieved saying something to the effect of the emerging movement being dangerous, though maybe I read it wrong or something… Anyways, I just wanted to take the opportunity to encourage you to explore it further, because there are *many* voices within it, many of whom hold tightly to orthodox doctrine (Apostles Creed, etc) but simply feel called to reach a postmodern culture as opposed to a modern and are seeking God on what that might look like. Again, they NOT leaving doctrinal foundations, but simply wondering what the church might look like in a postmodern culture.
http://www.friendofmissional.org/ This is a great example of what I’m talking about.
Warmly,
Molly by Golly
Hey there Molly by Golly
I am not sure what pamphlet was sent with the DVD as I am not involved with the shipping. I do know that our ministry stands firmly for testing everything and holding fast to that which is good. If any emerging type of church holds firmly to the foundational doctrines of scripture and holds to scripture as God-breathed, then we can fellowship with a clear conscience with these brothers and sisters in Christ. The only thing that could be of concern is that “doing church†is not relegated to a seeker centered service where the gospel is not clearly preached because it might offend the non-Christian. Although we are to be seeker sensitive, the church is the place where we grow in our knowledge of God and our place to serve our Lord and each other. If it becomes too focused on the felt needs of the non-Christian and stops growing and equipping the Christian, we need to be concerned. Our son right now is in a seeker centered church. He has been diligently working on the Pastor and the Elders trying to convince them to preach the word of God in a clear way for the edification of the whole church. He has been told that the full gospel will be understood eventually by the non-Christian but for the time being they choose to not offend by preaching about sin and righteousness and a coming judgment and the blood atonement. In fact they are so against his preaching the full gospel to the lost that they have forbidden him to teach in the church for fear that he will teach the gospel to the unbeliever. He is also not allowed to play in the church band or even teach the children. It is so sad that the seeker centered movement is so unwilling to preach the word that they are more willing to cater to the felt need of unbelievers than the truth of scripture.
I would love to see a DVD teaching on different false doctrines concerning marriage
Oh and if you make it, please put at least one more language on the DVD, Spanish for example
Hi Martin,
Well the DVD on marriage is in the works in the research stage. It may be a few years for production. I certainly will consider putting another language on the DVD. That would involve needing translation help but it is feasible.
Hi Cheryl. Thanks so much for the work you have done on the issues with women in ministry and marriage. This is my first time here at “strive to enter” and it has been a great help to me, for I have experienced the hindrances and opposition toward me for encouraging others to walk in the ways of the Lord simply because I am a woman. The Lord has strengthened me throughout the years and given me grace to respond in love, knowing that His sons and daughters will prophesy. The prejudice still hurts at times, but He gives His balm and joy. I have a question though. Have you ever thought about doing an article on the comment that Paul makes about the “man being the glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man”? From my understanding of creation Adam is not the glory of the dust, but he is the glory of his Creator; Eve is not the glory of a rib, but the glory of her Creator. Thanks again
Hi Diane,
I have so glad that this blog has been a help to you. I did a 45 minute teaching on 1 Corinthians 11 on the glory issue regarding man and woman on my DVD, but I can also do an blog article on the issue as well. It may have to be in a few parts so that it isn’t so long.
Right now I am still on a 3 week long ministry trip so I don’t have time right now to do the article right now until we arrive home. Keep watch for a new post, and thanks for the suggestion.
Hey Cheryl.
Interesting that the pivotal scripture in relation to authority structure in the marriage has not been discussed, I bring it to light in this post and invite commentary
***Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body***
You have rightfully said that it is not mentioned anywhere in the bible that the Husband is specifically “Priest of the Home” and that “All” in the body of Christ (both men and women) are called to be priests. True but on an examination of the relationship of Christ and the church , you must admit that Christ is the “High” Priest of the church and the point I’m trying to make is that He remains the “High” and the “only High” priest even when His entire body of believers are priests themselves.
Granted the husband is not designated the “title” priest of the home but would it also be correct to say that he is the High priest of His wife in replication of Christ’s leading of the church.
***5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything***
If wives are called to submit to the husband in “everything”, shouldnt the husband be responsible if not solely at least to the greater extent of his calling in the spiritual direction his wife and children are taking. And if that be the case would’nt “The priest of the Home” be an appropriate title to describe his calling.
You are right in saying that it is a responsibility which men sometimes feel a tendency to find burdensome but that would not be the case if the couple were “equally yoked” and the Husband realizes that his burden is light and his yoke is easy. All he needs to do is trust and obey the leading of the mighty Holy spirit and keep his home surrounded with the love of God.
Tarun,
I am glad that you popped by.
You said:
There are many things that Jesus is to the Church that the husband is not. Although Jesus is “head” of the church and the husband is “head” of the wife, Jesus is also Savior of the church and Lord of the church and God of the church. The husband is none of these things. We cannot just input everything that Jesus is to the husband unless the scripture tells us so.
Jesus is the only High Priest and the husband is not a secondary high priest of the wife. Jesus is unique in this aspect.
You said:
No it would not be correct. If the husband was the high priest of his wife then the husband would have to offer the sacrifice for his wife and would be responsible for her salvation. Are you prepared to go that far? I am not nor does scripture say a word about the husband as functioning as any kind of high priest responsible for the spirituality of his wife or for her salvation.
You also asked:
This is simply not scriptural. If it were we would find places where the husband is responsible for his wife’s spiritual direction. Adam was never held responsible for Eve’s choice and neither was Sapphira exonerated because she followed her husband’s suggestion that they both lie about the piece of property that they sold. Unfortunately many women have been influenced to believe that they are not responsible for their actions as long as their husband oversees them and guides them. God says this is not true when he judges women separately from their husbands. God never gives us any indication that husbands will be held responsible for their wives or that wives are “home free” by following their husbands. All of us are required to be mature Christians and to follow the Lord individually. Also no where does God ever give the man the mandate of a priest who makes the spiritual decisions for his wife.
The issue of submission is a big one and one that we will explore further in this blog after we are done with the spiritual gifts of men and women.
Lastly you said:
Women too need to trust and obey the leading of the Holy Spirit and keep their homes surrounded with the love of God. Nowhere are women exempt from finding out the Holy Spirit’s will for them by trusting in the husband’s “hearing from God”. Women too are to have an intimate relationship with God and they too are to hear from God. To make women’s responsibility with God any less is to deny that men and women are equal before God and equally can have an intimate relationship with God.
I hope that helps
Cheryl,
I’m glad I popped by too
and lets use your
style of response to clarify my stance,
(C)There are many things that Jesus is to the Church that the husband is not.
(T) I agree.
(C)Although Jesus is “head” of the church and the husband is “head” of the wife, Jesus is also Savior of the church and Lord of the church and God of the church. The husband is none of these things.
(T)I was not trying to imply that the Husband “is” the Saviour/Lord and God of his wife.That is a role that only Christ can fulfill. However even though he “is not” what Christ is in full, his wife is expected to have an attitude toward him “as if he were”.
(C)We cannot just input everything that Jesus is to the husband unless the scripture tells us so.
(T) We are not inputing everything that Jesus is to the Husband, what we are doing is defining the attitude a wife should have towards her Husband and scripture does tell us so.
***Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands “as” to the Lord ***
The key word in this verse being “as”
(C) Jesus is the only High Priest and the husband is not a secondary high priest of the wife. Jesus is unique in this aspect.
(T)In no way did I intend to mean that the husband is a secondary high priest. There is only one High priest and that is Jesus but the point I was trying to make was that even though both men and women are designated priests we still look up as a church to Jesus who is a priest too but his office is of “The” High priest and in the same way that the body of Christ looks up to Jesus as the High priest (being priests themselves)so also should a wife look up to her Husband as her head not considering him to be “the” High priest but definitely a priest who has the calling to lead and she as a priest with a calling to follow.
***Ephesians 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body***
I did use “high priest of the wife” to illustrate that he was called to be the spiritual leader of the couple in an aspect similar to the differences in office between Christ who is a leader of the church of priests.
(C)If the husband was the high priest of his wife then the husband would have to offer the sacrifice for his wife and would be responsible for her salvation. Are you prepared to go that far?
(T)If I came across as meaning “the” High priest to the wife let me make it clear that it was not the meaning I intended. Of course Jesus is the only mediator in respect to salvation.
and to answer your question, Yes I am called to give myself for her and I will or atleast die trying. I do not mean a sacrifice which leads to salvation for my wife as I know it will not, but sacrifice in as much as is required even unto death putting her before myself which by the way is a given when you are talking about the love Jesus had for the church and incidentally is also a parallel calling for the Christian, Revelation 12:11c “and they loved not their lives unto the death.”
(C)I am not, nor does scripture say a word about the husband as functioning as any kind of high priest responsible for the spirituality of his wife or for her salvation.
(T)Refer you to my last response for the salvation bit but in terms of the spirituality of his wife I would say that scripture does not say that he is responsible but that he is called to (there is a difference)lead her spiritual walk upwards, refer below
Ephesians 5:27 so that he may present the church to himself as glorious – not having a stain or wrinkle, or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.36 5:28 In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies
Please note the very clear “In the same way”
(C)If it were we would find places where the husband is responsible for his wife’s spiritual direction. Adam was never held responsible for Eve’s choice and neither was Sapphira exonerated because she followed her husband’s suggestion that they both lie about the piece of property that they sold. Unfortunately many women have been influenced to believe that they are not responsible for their actions as long as their husband oversees them and guides them. God says this is not true when he judges women separately from their husbands. God never gives us any indication that husbands will be held responsible for their wives or that wives are “home free” by following their husbands. All of us are required to be mature Christians and to follow the Lord individually.
(T)The husband is not held responsible for his wifes decisions, neither are wives allowed to be irresponsble in following the lead of their Husband. It is a question of who leads and who follows if its quite obvious the Husband is guiding the wife the wrong way then she is expected to adhere to the Word of God as a priest in her own right and follow the leading of the Spirit.
However if it is for e.g something like choosing a church when both have different preferences and both churches seem good I believe that the Husband’s prayerful choice should prevail.
(C) All of us are required to be mature Christians and to follow the Lord individually
(T) Let me put it this way - when you are “married” we are required to be mature Christians and follow the Lord “together”
(C)Also no where does God ever give the man the mandate of a priest who makes the spiritual decisions for his wife.
(T) Yes, he does not give him the mandate of a priest who makes the spiritual decisions for his wife in those words exactly but what he does say is ***Eph5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.***
We all have a free will and Jesus does not make our spiritual decisions for us, however He does let us know what His opinion is and I think that we would be wise to follow - would’nt you ?
Please note that I am not saying the Husband’s decisions are always right but that if a couple grow closer and closer in their walk with the Lord as they should then the Husband making spiritual decisions in areas which are day-day would be expected and desired, the wife would be rightly expected to follow after deferring to the Word as the final authority.
In that context take into account the following factors,
(a)if men and women are priests
(b)all Christians are called to a life of ministry
(c)the home is socio-setup within which the husband and wife fulfill a part of their their priestly calling
(d)The husband is expected to provide leadership in their spiritual walk together
I think it would be safe to say that in the context of the home the Husband is the priest.
Please note that I am not taking away the wife’s calling as a priest but when we use the term “Husband is the priest of the home” what we are implying is that he is the spiritual head in the context of his household.
Look at the other 2 ways of putting it across.
a) The wife is the priest of the home implies the wife leads , Husband follows
b) Both are priests of the Home implies both can move in opposite directions even when in accordance with the word based on personal opinion and past experience and anything else which might cause them to take different paths
(C)The issue of submission is a big one and one that we will explore further in this blog after we are done with the spiritual gifts of men and women.
(T)I look forward to it.
(C)Women too need to trust and obey the leading of the Holy Spirit and keep their homes surrounded with the love of God.
(T)True
(C)Nowhere are women exempt from finding out the Holy Spirit’s will for them by trusting in the husband’s “hearing from God”
(T)This is the way it works. Since there is only One Holy Spirit. He will lead both the Husband and the Wife down the same road. However when both have heard differently (problem of the flesh)the Word is looked into, and who-soever’s leading aligns with the Word of God goes. Lets say both Husband and Wife have heard from God differently(Problem of the flesh)and both inspirations align with the word then the Husband who is the Head should be obeyed otherwise there is not really much point in the Word of God calling him the head is there ?
(C)Women too are to have an intimate relationship with God and they too are to hear from God.
(T)Yes and Amen.
(C)To make women’s responsibility with God any less is to deny that men and women are equal before God
(T)Their responsibilities are not lesser or greater. They are different and Yes, Men and Women are equal but unique.
(C)and equally can have an intimate relationship with God.
(T)Yes and Amen.
(C)I hope that helps
(T)I do too.
May God bless.
T
Tarun,
Again, welcome and thanks for posting.
Actually that is pure and simple idolatry. Wives are not to look on their husbands as Lord and God. Can you imagine if we take this explanation and use it for a carved idol? We could then say that the idol is not God nor is the idol Lord, but we can have an attitude towards the idol “as if it were Lord and God”. Do you see how idolatrous this is? No, my friend, Jesus is our God and there is to be no other Lord or God besides him.
Scripture is not saying here that wives are to submit to their husbands as if they are their Lord and God. Scripture rather defines it’s own terminology:
The Amplified Bible says:
The husband is not the replacement for God, but honoring the husband is something that a wife does that is actually done for Christ’s sake and will rewarded by Christ.
My point is that this isn’t scriptural. Nowhere is this view found in scripture. One can only get the idea of the husband to be considered a higher priest than the wife nor can we get the teaching that the husband is called to lead and she is called to follow. I know that this is tradition, but it is a tradition that has no foundation in scripture. Give me just one verse that says that a man is to “lead” his wife. It just isn’t there. When women follow this teaching they are prone to stay back and not take any responsibility for their own spiritual growth. It is too easy to rely on someone else when scripture says that we are all to grow up and be mature Christians trained to make wise decisions.
I think it is a wonderful thing to sacrifice yourself for your wife. Many godly men do that as an act of love. However what many men mean by this is that they sacrifice of themselves to make all the decisions for their wives. They are to lead her and make her decisions for her and this leads the woman to remaining childlike and dependent. When the man is willing to lead in love and sacrifice himself so that he allows her to make decisions too, then that is a true and godly sacrifice. Somehow I am not sure that is what you are saying.
Ephesians 5:27 so that he may present the church to himself as glorious – not having a stain or wrinkle, or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.36 5:28 In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies”
Please note the very clear “In the same way”
We understand scripture by reading the entire text and not isolating one scripture. Look again at the verse and the one following.
Scripture is talking about nourishing and cherishing the physical. It is talking about loving their wives “as their own bodies” and is not talking about presenting their wives to God spiritually. While Christ cherishes and looks after our spiritual welfare so the husband is to cherish and look after the wife’s physical (and emotional) welfare. If this scripture meant that the husband is responsible to present their wives to God pure spiritually, then we have a big problem. Every doctrine in scripture is repeated so that it is verified. Where does scripture ever repeat the thought that a man is responsible for his wife’s spirituality? Also every example that we have regarding a husband and wife brought before the Lord for judgment, the husband and wife are judged individually and no husband is ever said to be responsible for the wife’s actions. If this is the only scripture that you can pull out to verify that husbands are responsible for their wives, then you are left with an unverified witness of this “doctrine”. No other doctrine is every left without a second witness.
I do understand that this is what you believe but the problem is that you don’t have any verses to prove that this is what the scripture teaches. No where is the husband ever told to guide the wife, or take authority over her. Each of us are required to hear from and follow the Holy Spirit for ourselves. If the woman only hears from the Holy Spirit when her husband is going in a wrong direction, then she is inferior in the body of Christ. No, my friend, the woman is expected to grow up and mature in her own faith and her own ability to hear from God.
The wife certainly can submit to her husband’s decision here or the husband can sacrifice his preference for the wife’s preference
That is sacrifice in action!
Togetherness is wonderful and this is the goal. However this doesn’t mean that the wife isn’t to hear from God equally with her husband. If both of them are equally submitted to God, he should be speaking to both of them so their decisions will be much easier.
However what does this submission look like? The wife submits by honoring her husband and the husband sacrifices by giving up his own personal choices to sacrifice for her. This is submission and sacrifice in action. Anything else is taking authority over another person’s will when there should be sacrifice instead. When they both work together in equal honor, it is an easy thing to work things out.
What I have found from scripture and personal experience is that Jesus does not always give us any more of his opinion than what is given in scripture. He gives guidelines and then he expects us to “work out our salvation” by taking the guidelines that he has set and deciding for ourselves how best to honor him with our mature decisions. After all in the next life we will be required to judge the world and the angels so we need to all learn how to make our own decisions here in this life. In the next life, there will be no relationship of husband and wife so the wife will be on her own to judge angels and will the men also be on their own. Maturity is the mandate and wise decisions by all is the growing experience.
I think it would be safe to say that in the context of the home the Husband is the priest.
Please note that I am not taking away the wife’s calling as a priest but when we use the term “Husband is the priest of the home” what we are implying is that he is the spiritual head in the context of his household.”
No it is not scriptural to say that the Husband is the priest of the home. This is a cultural understanding, but it does not come from scripture. In scripture, the wife is also referred to as manager of the home. 1 Timothy 5:14 says in the Amplified Bible:
The Greek word for “guide” is oikodespoteo and it means (in Strong’s) to be the “head” of the family and the WordStudy Dictionary adds:
No, my friend, there is no one “head” of the family and no one priest of the family. This is just not scriptural.
We will be exploring this further at a later time as I will be posting on marriage and the women’s issue.
Blessings!
That’s quite a bit I need to write now
but before I go into breaking that up I’d like to bring to the forefront a few scriptures which will put what I believe is the pivotal scripture in this discussion (Eph 5) in context and rightly divide the Word.
So If this is the scripture which the Lord has provided to show that the Husband is called to lead
i.e
5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body. 5:24 But as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
then a reiteration of similar obedience to God’s authority structure that he set up in His soverign Wisdom (Spend a minute on the scripture below)
Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment
When Romans 13:1 says “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities” Would’nt it be right to say that the “Governing authority” plays the lead role. I’d like you to make the difference between obeying the law of the land that has been set up by the leader of the land and saying that to follow the law of the land in totality is idolatory. It is an authority structure set up by God for our benefit.
Now I may have my own opinion about the law of the land I live in and may actually feel that it is downright dumb but I am still expected to follow it unless it contradicts the Word of God.
In the situation immediately above who would you say is the leader - me as a Godfearing citizen or the Head of State who is creating the rules I follow ? Sure I can vote, Sure I can petition, Sure I can try and influence the leader every leagal way I can but the final decision lies very clearly with the ruler doesnt it. That establishes leadership and I am sure you can draw the line between that and Idolatory which can be defined as a situation that Shadrach and gang had to face.
Now apply the same principle to Ephesians 5:22- 24
Can you still say that this scripture “5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, 5:23 because the husband is the head of the wife as also Christ is the head of the church – he himself being the savior of the body.” does not give the Husband the mantle of leadership and the final word(which the Husband is accountable to God for)
Sure the Wife can petition, influence and call in support but at the end of the day if she is unable to persuade him to change his mind “she is to follow his direction unless it contradicts the Word” Of course he is going to be wrong many a time and is she called to go her own way then ?
No,Not if you take 1 Peter 3 1-6 into consideration ***In the same way, wives, be subject to your own husbands. Then, even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 3:2 when they see your pure and reverent conduct.3:3 Let your beauty not be external – the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes – 3:4 but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God’s sight. 3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so.****
Ok Cheryl, I’m sure you will have something to say about this . I cant wait : )
The rain has stopped and I got to ride off..
Brother Tarun,
You said:
Actually I wouldn’t say anything of the sort. Obeying the law over us that has been set up by God is not idolatry. Idolatry is when we set something up as God and give devotion to a thing or person as God (or god).
You asked:
The law of the land is our governing authority plain and simple. We cannot just make up our own rules. We are to obey unless the human law overrides God’s law and then we are required to disobey human law makers.
You said:
My friend, you cannot take two unrelated passages and make an application between the two. Ephesians is not talking about a law or governing authority. That would be completely reading into the text.
You said:
This scripture says nothing about the husband being the leader nor is God telling the husband to take authority over his wife. Neither does it say that the husband is accountable to God for the final word. Each of us are accountable in exactly the same way. If that is not true, then please show me from scripture where it is not true.
Lastly you quoted:
My dear brother, this is not telling us that Sarah called Abraham her God or that she treated him as such. The term “lord” has several meanings, but the one which would be applicable here can be found in Strong’s concordance. It says it means:
So Sarah was calling Abraham what in that day was a respectful title. I often call my husband “sir” and I do it out of respect for him. That may be odd in this day and age, but I do like honoring him in every way that I can. Wives are told to give their husbands respect and Sarah did just that. Today “lord” is not commonly said as a way of showing respect. But Sarah absolutely and in no way committed idolatry by treating Abraham as her God.
The problem that you have to come face to face with is that scripture never even once tells the husband to take any kind of authority over the wife. Scripture also does not tell the husband that he can command the wife nor does it give him the right to act as a governing authority commanding her to obey his law. Instead scripture commands him to love her and to give up his own desires for her. When he puts her first, he is showing love. When she puts him first, she is showing respect.
The ESV shows this so clearly when it says in Romans 12:19:
Honor and respect is to be given to both and putting each other first is God’s way.
Cheryl,
(C)My friend, you cannot take two unrelated passages and make an application between the two. Ephesians is not talking about a law or governing authority. That would be completely reading into the text.
(T)Here are the 2 scriptures in brief again :
(a)Ephesians talks about “Wives submitting to Husbands as to the Lord” and
(b)Romans goes “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.”
The application I am making is that as total obedience to a Governing authority is not Idolatory as accepted by you and me. In the same way complete obedience of a wife to her husband “as” to the Lord is not Idolatory and this is only “one” of the aspects that would constitute a wife’s overall attitude to the husband “without” being idolatorous.
Now going by earlier posts I am quite sure you will say that nowhere in Ephesians does it say that a wife has to “totally obey” her Husband which is exactly what it means and this can be proven here.
1 Peter 3 1-6 “In the same way, wives, be subject to your own husbands. Then, even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 3:2 when they see your pure and reverent conduct.3:3 Let your beauty not be external – the braiding of hair and wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes – 3:4 but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God’s sight. 3:5 For in the same way the holy women who hoped in God long ago adorned themselves by being subject to their husbands, 3:6 like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. You become her children when you do what is good and have no fear in doing so”
Lets look at this exaltation to the wife point by point.
Point 1. Be Subject to your own husband
Point 2. Even if Husbands are disobedient to the Word they will be won over without a word (from the wife)by the way the wife lives.
How much clearer can Scripture be, Even if the man is ungodly the Godly wife is expected to win him over by “the way she lives” and “without a word”
I would like to emphasise the “without a word” bit and please note that this is for a man disobedient to the word of God.
How much more should she remain “without a word” to a Godly husband who is following the leading of the Lord the best he knows how.
- Now what I am saying here is that the “without a word” is an attitude of the heart. It is not mute obedience with rebellion in the heart but a total surrender of her will to the husband in heart (check Vs 4) This obviously follows through in action even if she thinks differently.(Please dont go into the idolatory bit here, we’ve already dealt with the difference)
She can do this confidently, believing God to work out the situation for her and her husbands best ineterest knowing that she is in line with God’s word. It’s actually a question of the Wife’s faith in God and trusting him with childlike trust to reward her for her faith as opposed to her relying on her own wisdom and strategies which may be superior to her Husband’s in the natural and is exactly why she is put in that position so she may be proven of God in obeying the Husband given to her by God even if she knows differently and possibly better in the natural and thereby exhibiting trust in God and not her own strategies.
****Whew****
Point 3. Again (in Vs 5)being subject to your Husbands (note how it is mentioned twice in this very same passage)
Point 4. Lets discuss Sarah calling Abraham lord - Of course its tradition, she is not replacing Abraham for God what she is doing is exalting him as high as she knows to do.
Jesus said, “Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks” (Matthew 12:34).
Now would’nt you say that all Sarah would have been giving him is Lip service when she calls him lord and doesn’t obey him when he states his particular view on a subject and expects her to follow him.
The fact is that the verse 3:6 actually goes “like Sarah who obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.
So what Peter is trying to say here is that
(a)Sarah obeyed
(b)the obedience was done with a heart attitude which was so reverent that out of the mouth came “lord”
Here again let me very clearly say that the word lord is not the point , a wife can call her husband anything she wants and that they are comfortable with but when push comes to shove God and the husband know that the wife will surrender her will to his. If she doesnt, its disobedience and we just established that obedience is a must.
Now I ask you -
(a)If there are 2 priests in the home and the wife priest is expected to obey the husband priest “absolutely” wouldn’nt the husband priest be the leader ? I’d say that’s kind of common sense
(b)and if the Husband priest is the “leader” of the wife priest and hence the household.
He becomes by God given right the “Priest of the home”
Trust that clarifies.
Later. . . .
Tarun,
Two equal partners listening to and preferring one another - that’s marriage.
God commanded Abraham to obey Sarah and if God’s command to obey is something that makes one the follower and the one obeyed makes them the leader, then we see that other side of the coin in Genesis.
Gen 21:12 ESV But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.
The word translated “do” in “Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you” is the Hebrew word shama and it means to obey. God told Abraham to obey Sarah.
There is much more to be said, but I don’t think this is the post to do it on since most people don’t read the comments on an older post. I have a post or two left to do on the issue of spiritual gifts, maybe a post on the debate with Matt Slick that I will be doing next week on the issue of women teaching the bible to men and then I want to move on to the issue of marriage and how that affects the ability for women to minister. If you can be patient, I think it would be better to answer these questions when everyone gets to read them and can participate in the discussion. That would be most helpful to all.
I do not know how quick I will get to the issue of marriage but it will be the next big issue on this blog so if you could copy your comments here and post them on that blog topic, I am certain it will be a lively discussion.
Blessings!
Cheryl
Cheryl,
Sure, I’ll be happy to copy into the marriage post when it comes up but I’d just like to reply to your last post and I’ll leave it at that - Thanks.
(c)Gen 21:12 ESV But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.
The word translated “do” in “Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you” is the Hebrew word shama and it means to obey. God told Abraham to obey Sarah.
(T) That’s absolutely right , now look at the following in terms of Sarah’s attitude in approaching this matter I’ll pull in one verse before this one.
21:10 So she said to Abraham, “Banish that slave woman and her son, for the son of that slave woman will not be an heir along with my son Isaac!”
21:11 Sarah’s demand displeased Abraham greatly because Ishmael was his son.19 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not be upset about the boy or your slave wife. Do all that Sarah is telling you because through Isaac your descendants will be counted.
Look at the pattern set up here.
(1)Sarah “needs” Abraham’s consent to Banish the slave woman which is why she asks him to do so and doesnt do so herself regardless of his consent.
(2)Sarah’s demand displeased Abraham.
(3)Lets stop here for a minute and ponder what would have happenned had God not intervened. Hagar would not have been asked to leave because Abraham’s consent was not going to be given considering Sarah’s demand displeased him and that would have been that. Hagar would not have gone anywhere and Sarah would have to live with her in obedience to Abraham’s lack of consent and she would have to do it with a willing heart.
(4)This is exactly my point, if the wife is obedient to the Husband as we know Sarah was (refer 1 Peter) she will receive the reward for her faith in following the Word to obey her husband and in this case God himself intervened and expressly instructs Abraham to do what Sarah told him to do because Abraham was clearly in the wrong and Sarah was right (in accordance with the Lords will)
(5)That’s how the system is set up to work. obedience to the Husband is a faith proposition and the “Just shall walk by faith”
(6)In other words the Wife is subject to the Husband as to the Lord and the Husband is subject to the Lord “not to the wife” but when the wife is obedient in faith to the husband then she receives the reward for her obedience to the husband from the Lord who intervenes and brings justice as always and especially when the Husband is misusing his God given position as was clearly the case here . .
I’m over and out. This was fun and I hope it was helpful at some point. U take care.
There’s a website called Christians for Biblical Equality. I’m not affiliated with them. I mention it because they have outstanding scholarly articles about the passages used in the debate regarding women, ministry, marriage, submission, and biblical doctrine.
I wanted to post a reply to some of what’s been said here and I found myself at their website looking for particulars.
Its a great resource for anyone interested in further study and in developing a strong position based on what the bible actually says.
Tarun,
As I said most of this can be discussed in the marriage post, so I won’t answer in this post. A couple of quick comments regarding what you said and we shall both leave this for the next set:
You said: (1)Sarah “needs” Abraham’s consent to Banish the slave woman which is why she asks him to do so and doesnt do so herself regardless of his consent.
Sarah doesn’t “need” Abraham’s consent at all. Hagar was Sarah’s maid so Sarah can do what she wants with her own maid. However while Hagar was Sarah’s maid, she was also Abraham’s concubine and because Sarah had herself “given” Hagar to Abraham, she now belonged to him.
Secondly you said:
(5)That’s how the system is set up to work. obedience to the Husband is a faith proposition and the “Just shall walk by faith”
Scripture doesn’t say obedience is what a wife is to offer. She is to submit as he is to sacrifice. Yet a wife can obey her husband if she asks her to do something just as a husband can obey his wife as she asks him to do something. This is biblical and to disregard Abraham’s obedience is to disregard Abraham putting his wife and God first in his life over his concubine and his son.
See you on the other marriage posts when they come up. I hope you don’t leave and not come back because it will be a lively discussion, I am sure!
Desi,
Thanks for giving Tarun that information. I am sure he will find it very helpful!
” If it becomes too focused on the felt needs of the non-Christian and stops growing and equipping the Christian, we need to be concerned.”
Cheryl, This is so important and one reason I even started to look at your teaching. You make clear in all of your teaching that sound doctrine is all important. When I first found your site, I kept waiting for the ‘liberal’ or felt needs doctrine to make its appearance. After quite a while, it has not. I purchased your DVD set, studied scripture in context along with it and it is right on. The introduction on that series is excellent.
I came out of a seeker church. Ironically, they won’t preach the full Gospel, but they were very strict complementarians! Go figure.
Lin,
Thank you for your very kind words! You are right - I make a big deal about the importance of sound doctrine. There is a cost to pay for this, but to me it is worth it. My DVD set has been given to several liberal “scholars” who are very much in favor of women in ministry. They should love the DVDs because they present the egalitarian message in a very visual way and the message is not combative but gentle. However these “scholars” do not appear to like the way I handled the issue. I have made a strong stand that the bible is completely inspired and we cannot ignore scripture just because we don’t like what it says. This apparently is offensive to some.
I worked very hard to understand the hard passages of scripture but I did not waver from keeping my understanding in tune with the inspired context as well as the inspired words and the inspired grammar. My understanding has come because I read the scriptures to truly understand what they are saying so that they can speak without contradiction. I do not come to the scriptures with a preconceived conclusion that I want to force on the texts themselves. Along the way I rejected many egalitarian arguments because they did not fit the context or they ignored some of the inspired words that didn’t fit their theory. It was my sincere belief (and it still is) that one can know they have the correct interpretation when there is nothing in the passage or in the rest of scripture that contradicts your interpretation. Yet even with this strong view of scripture I am still being told that I am inserting political correctness into the text. This is a shut-down statement and when I ask them to show me how I am doing this, there is no answer.
But the message is getting through and I give God the glory! Recently I received an email from a Pastor who said that he had never before heard an interpretation that didn’t have contradictions until he viewed the DVDs. He bought another 6 DVD sets as gifts for 6 of his fellow Pastors because he appreciated them so much. He also is giving credit to the Holy Spirit for bringing these passages to light and I am so happy to hear that. That is exactly where the praise should go and is the fruit that I am looking for.
I also know what you mean about the seeker churches that go overboard to please the sinner. When one caters to one who is unregenerate and who wants to have his/her ears tickled, the meat of the word will never be preached. The gospel will also not be preached in a way that will make it fruitful. My son was asked to leave a church where the gospel was not being preached because it was considered offensive. For over a year he worked with the Pastor to try to get him to preach the gospel and not just invite people to pray a prayer to have a “party in their heart”. The mature ones are asked to leave the church if they do not support a watered-down gospel. It is very sad.